INDIAN SONNY'S BOLIO DOGS -- BETTER THAN PATRICK'S?

[MOSES]

We agree.

More importantly, as we get more evolved as dogmen, we can hold HOW a dog wins to a higher standard

Do we want clubfighter level wins?
Do we want dogs that win, but can't be matched afterward?
Do we want dogs that win like Floyd Mayweather?
Or do we want dogs that win like a prime Chavez and Duran?

The dogs Patrick was producing, for the most part, we excellent 1-3xWs, and his Grand Champions were nothing out of the ordinary (save Buck).

There are no Clouse dogs EVER beating multiple Champions that I know of ... nor could Tombstone have won more than a couple before he, too, had to be retired ... but MANY combinations of Eli- and Eli/Carver-type dogs have done this.

If we are going to "raise the bar" as we progress as dogmen, are we going to be satisfied only producing "average, competitive" dogs? I look back on my own record as a breeder, and I had an extremely high level of success "winning" (or "losing extremely game") ... sometimes over some pretty good dogs/dogmen ... but NONE of the dogs I bred personally were devastating 7xW type dogs in elite competition.

Now, I bred a dog that beat a 6xW and another that beat a 5xW ... and quite a few beat Champions ... but these dogs from me, themselves, never made it passed 1 and 2. Good dogs, yes. Truly elite? No. I am just being honest.

My dogs have produced about 10 dogs that made Gr Ch, only 2 of which won more than 5, both of which had Eli influence, not Clouse, not RBJ, nothing

Zukill (6xW) had a pinch of Chinaman; Jigilu (9xW) was a straight Eli/Carver cross. Zukill had no cutters and yet still killed everything between :19 and :48 ... and no dog made it passed :42 with Jigilu. And the funny thing is, my dogs were almost never crossed with either Chinaman or Eli-type dogs, and yet the times they were there were superstars.

Another such cross was Jackson's 45. Although only a common 2xW, his wins were BOTH DOA, in :17 and :19, from holds on the back of the head. While Andy Capp flat-killed only 1 dog in 5 fights, by taking it out with 1 crushing skull hold, Jackson's 45 killed 2 for 2 that way, and in a lot quicker times than Andy Capp did. Nobody wanted anything to do with 45 after he won his second fight & had yet another opponent twitching like a chicken on the pit floor, from a second fatal head hold in just a few minutes

MOK, who bred the dog along with Jackpot Kennels, was a close friend of BBC (who campaigned Gr Ch Amboss, Ch Bullet, Gr Ch Psycho, etc.) MOK saw all these dogs' matches, and was around some pretty good dogs in his day, and he said none of them could stand up to 45. He was lighting fast, a wizard on defense, and killed 2 dogs stone dead with head holds, without getting bit back.

That kind of POWER is just not going to happen with "Bolio/Clouse" blood

Bolio/Clouse blood will produce game, slick, talented, wonderful dogs fully capable "of winning" ... maybe 1, maybe 2, maybe 3-5 ... but if you want to be able to kill multiple dogs AND/OR win 7, 8, 9x ... you are going to need Eli blood in there (for the most part).

So my point is, I have ALWAYS been a fan of "game, tough, smart" ... in high percentages ... but as I sit back and review history, my own dogs, as well as the dogs of others, and (with the benefit of this database) I am able to crunch the numbers, look at the recipes, and "think out loud" ... I can honestly say I wish I would have gotten a hold of some linebred Indian Sonny-type dogs early in my career, and bred them to Poncho/Missy, as Cates' Rambo was bred by Mr. Nice Guy to their sister Ruby. I wish I would have added this kind of blood to my mix, for a lot of reasons, but MOSTLY to add the kind of elite-level power that some of these other lines have.

Don't get me wrong, I love my line, and they have STOPPED any number of Eli-type dogs in the past, and I would bet on my percentages over them any day of the week. But sometimes the best solution isn't "either/or" ... sometimes it's BOTH.

I don't think I could possibly improve on my "percentage win record" ... but what I most definitely could have improved upon was the ability of my dogs to FUBAR something, right away, AND still keep their gameness ... if I would have incorporated the right blends of more Indian Sonny-type blood (or any high-quality Eli or Chinaman blood) and "less" extra helpings of Patrick-type Bolio/Clouse blood.

JMHO,

Jack

So, I have to ask, did you see the 45 dog? Did you see any of the Bullet dogs or Amboss?

[Officially Retired]

So, I have to ask, did you see the 45 dog? Did you see any of the Bullet dogs or Amboss?

No, but what difference does that make?

I just explained that MOK did.

MOK is not an exaggerator, and has bred/shown enough winners (and been around enough top shelf dogs LIKE Amboss and the others I just finished describing) to have his opinion matter to me.

And he was not the only one saying these things either.

Jack

PS: And let me also add that, aside from BBC, MOK is personal friends with Al White, Junior Bush (Crenshaw's mentor), and his uncle was Drew Favre (as in Favre's Luke), just to name a few, so he is not just some guy online with 'a cool internet avatar' (like some people). MOK is a second generation dogman with some pretty solid contacts.

[MOSES]

No, but what difference does that make?

I just explained that MOK did.

MOK is not an exaggerator, and has bred/shown enough winners (and been around enough top shelf dogs LIKE Amboss and the others I just finished describing) to have his opinion matter to me.

And he was not the only one saying these things either.

Jack

PS: And let me also add that, aside from BBC, MOK is personal friends with Al White, Junior Bush (Crenshaw's mentor), and his uncle was Drew Favre (as in Favre's Luke), just to name a few, so he is not just some guy online with 'a cool internet avatar' (like some people). MOK is a second generation dogman with some pretty solid contacts.

Jack,

I know them all, as well as the back story. Not taking anything from MOK at all, one of my best dogs came off his yard. I know all the people that you are talking about as well as the dogs. I asked did you see the dog or dogs, your response was no.

MOK and BBC work and shows the dogs, and don’t make excuses for any of them. They aren’t “breeders” because they want to sell dogs. Point is MOK and BBC went their separate ways, and everybody landed on their feet. Plenty of things were said by both, and I’ll leave it at that. I have enough respect for them as men to leave their business between them.

PS: That just some internet guy with the "cool internet avatar", has more loses than some people have in dogs that they have matched period! He has been around long enough to know what is up from down. Don’t get it crossed up, just because I am not screaming from the mountain top doesn’t mean we don’t make noise. We just took a little break, kind of like you not selling dogs anymore.

I am not hard to find at all, like you said MOK has the contacts, feel free to make that call. I am not about all the talking! That avatar doesn’t belong to some kid that just got off the bus.

Now, how do you REALY want to carry it? Come get to know me, I promise I am kool. Win or loose I still have my day job, but we'll iron a few things out.

[Officially Retired]

Jack,
I know them all, as well as the back story. Not taking anything from MOK at all, one of my best dogs came off his yard. I know all the people that you are talking about as well as the dogs. I asked did you see the dog or dogs, your response was no.

Then why did you ask me the question, if you already knew the answer?

If you don't like MOK's opinion, I could care less.

However, if one of your own best dogs came from MOK, then ask yourself ... did one of his best dogs came from you?

MOK and BBC work and shows the dogs, and don’t make excuses for any of them. They aren’t “breeders” because they want to sell dogs. Point is MOK and BBC went their separate ways, and everybody landed on their feet. Plenty of things were said by both, and I’ll leave it at that. I have enough respect for them as men to leave their business between them.

Okay, so what?

If you know MOK and all the ones mentioned are the real deal, and don't make excuses, then sit down and STFU when I relay the honest opinion of MOK.

Did you see 45 go? If so, speak up.
If not, again, sit down and STFU.
This is my story not yours.
If you actually saw 45 go, and you actually have a relevant opinion, then you are welcome to provide an input.

However, if you just want to "make noise," because you're a fan of some dogs and are surprised to hear a man has an opinion that A particular dog would have killed them ... but you have no insight of your own to provide ... again, STFU, your opinion is irrelevant.

All I know is MOK has always been honest, and real, with me as far as dog quality goes.
I also know for a fact he was involved with all parties, and directly saw all the dogs mentioned go.
All "you" know is the same AND that he sold you one of your best dogs.

So, if that is all you know, and you didn't see 45 go, then (as I said) sit down and STFU.

Everyone whom I have *ever* talked to, who actually saw the dog go, did nothing but RAVE about Jackson's 45 ... so my best guess is you NEVER saw the dog go, to be doubting him at all

PS: That just some internet guy with the "cool internet avatar", has more loses than some people have in dogs that they have matched period! He has been around long enough to know what is up from down. Don’t get it crossed up, just because I am not screaming from the mountain top doesn’t mean we don’t make noise. We just took a little break, kind of like you not selling dogs anymore.

Okay, fair enough.

I am not hard to find at all, like you said MOK has the contacts, feel free to make that call. I am not about all the talking! That avatar doesn’t belong to some kid that just got off the bus.

OMG, more internet challenges from yet another dumbass

Buddy, here is something you need to understand: I am not "looking for you" at all ... you don't mean shit to me.

You questioned whether "I saw all the dogs," which I never claimed to have done, but I *DID* cite my source, which makes your question a waste of my fogging time.

I don't care if you got off the bus yesterday, or 10 years ago, NOTHING will change THE FACT Jackson's 45 DOA'd 2 dogs, in :17 and :19 respectively, and "the guy who saw ALL the dogs mentioned" go ... AND who "sold you one of your best dogs" ... DIRECTLY TOLD ME that 45 was at a totally different level and as close to an unbeatable dog as he has seen in all his years in dogs.

That's it.

Now, how do you REALY want to carry it? Come get to know me, I promise I am kool. Win or loose I still have my day job, but we'll iron a few things out.

Are you trying to scare me?

Buddy, my dogs have beaten FAR bigger fish than you, and I haven't bred dogs for 3 years. MOK has no more dogs.

Your "challenge" is therefore nothing but internet stupidity ... all because I relayed "an opinion" of a man you also know is legit.

Now, as far as this debate goes, I will "carry it on" with you forever .. or toss your dumb ass out on your ear ... unless you SHUT TF UP ... or ... give a first-hand account of what you SAW of 45.

If you actually saw 45 go, as well as the other dogs mentioned (Amboss, Bullett, and Psycho) ... AND if you have a legitimate differing opinion ... then you are welcome to disagree with MOK's assessment. No problemo.

However, if you didn't actually see 45, and the other dogs mentioned ... which makes all the noise you're making here a wasting my fogging time with a bunch of lip ... then go back to my STFU directive.

Because, as far as being "cool," you seem to be more of a doubter, and cheerleader, than anything I would consider cool.

MOK, on the other hand, has never been a cheerleader, and thought the world of ALL the dogs mentioned, but he was just that impressed with 45 by comparison.

Deal with it,

Jack

[MOSES]

Then why did you ask me the question, if you already knew the answer?

If you don't like MOK's opinion, I could care less.

However, if one of your own best dogs came from MOK, then ask yourself ... did one of his best dogs came from you?





Okay, so what?

If you know MOK and all the ones mentioned are the real deal, and don't make excuses, then sit down and STFU when I relay the honest opinion of MOK.

Did you see 45 go? If so, speak up.
If not, again, sit down and STFU.
This is my story not yours.
If you actually saw 45 go, and you actually have a relevant opinion, then you are welcome to provide an input.

However, if you just want to "make noise," because you're a fan of some dogs and are surprised to hear a man has an opinion that A particular dog would have killed them ... but you have no insight of your own to provide ... again, STFU, your opinion is irrelevant.

All I know is MOK has always been honest, and real, with me as far as dog quality goes.
I also know for a fact he was involved with all parties, and directly saw all the dogs mentioned go.
All "you" know is the same AND that he sold you one of your best dogs.

So, if that is all you know, and you didn't see 45 go, then (as I said) sit down and STFU.

Everyone whom I have *ever* talked to, who actually saw the dog go, did nothing but RAVE about Jackson's 45 ... so my best guess is you NEVER saw the dog go, to be doubting him at all





Okay, fair enough.





OMG, more internet challenges from yet another dumbass

Buddy, here is something you need to understand: I am not "looking for you" at all ... you don't mean shit to me.

You questioned whether "I saw all the dogs," which I never claimed to have done, but I *DID* cite my source, which makes your question a waste of my fogging time.

I don't care if you got off the bus yesterday, or 10 years ago, NOTHING will change THE FACT Jackson's 45 DOA'd 2 dogs, in :17 and :19 respectively, and "the guy who saw ALL the dogs mentioned" go ... AND who "sold you one of your best dogs" ... DIRECTLY TOLD ME that 45 was at a totally different level and as close to an unbeatable dog as he has seen in all his years in dogs.

That's it.





Are you trying to scare me?

Buddy, my dogs have beaten FAR bigger fish than you, and I haven't bred dogs for 3 years. MOK has no more dogs.

Your "challenge" is therefore nothing but internet stupidity ... all because I relayed "an opinion" of a man you also know is legit.

Now, as far as this debate goes, I will "carry it on" with you forever .. or toss your dumb ass out on your ear ... unless you SHUT TF UP ... or ... give a first-hand account of what you SAW of 45.

If you actually saw 45 go, as well as the other dogs mentioned (Amboss, Bullett, and Psycho) ... AND if you have a legitimate differing opinion ... then you are welcome to disagree with MOK's assessment. No problemo.

However, if you didn't actually see 45, and the other dogs mentioned ... which makes all the noise you're making here a wasting my fogging time with a bunch of lip ... then go back to my STFU directive.

Because, as far as being "cool," you seem to be more of a doubter, and cheerleader, than anything I would consider cool.

MOK, on the other hand, has never been a cheerleader, and thought the world of ALL the dogs mentioned, but he was just that impressed with 45 by comparison.

Deal with it,

Jack

Pause! Na Jack I am not a cheerleader, talker, or a scary guy at all, but you are not going to slide your slick shit this way at all.
I know MOK liked the dog; he tried to put me onto the Diamond Dude dog. Early, it just was not my thing. I have passed on a lot of good dogs, sold my share of winners and dogs that ended up at stud on a number of yards.

So to answer your directly, No. MOK did not get dogs from me, we both got dogs from BBC and most of those dogs came from Mr. Cooper and Coleman who I also know. I have no shame in admitting that at all! In fact Mr. Cooper was the one that told me about the Ruben dogs over 15 years ago and Coleman is the one that put me onto the Bullet dogs.

Understanding how things go with relationships, in the dogs. That’s not STFU, that was a question, because I didn’t see the 45 dog, hence to question.
I can appreciate a good dog, period! If the 45 dog was one of those dogs GREAT, I am not hating at all. In fact I was glad for him. I considered MOK and BBC both to be friends, I could care less what they were feeding. BBC had a lot of dogs to choose from not just Bullet dogs and I never thought they nor MOK were kennel blind.
It was a house that was divided and they had their issues, but I have never chose sides in any of that. I am sure you can understand that.
Yes this is your “story”, and more over it’s your board, so till your “story”. I am not worried about you booting me off the board, that is your prerogative, do what you think is best.

That isn’t an internet challenge Jack, it was an invitation. As for dumbass, PLEASE, Jack come on! If I have managed to stay off your radar, than it means that things are in order and I am far smarter than you think. Furthermore, I have NEVER had to rely on these dogs to pay a single bill or shed a tear about a dime I have left on the table. I might be a lot of things but I am far from a “dumbass”.

I shouldn’t “mean shit” to you, get your emotion under control. Hell I don’t know you from Adam, but it won’t stop me from saying you have bred some good dogs. What I know to be general excepted is you are a pompous and arrogant, and that’s even ok with me.
The issue comes when you want to question who or what I am. It really isn’t that hard to iron it all out as men, that’s what “how you really want to carry it” means. It can be a phone call, 10 lbs of chicken, or we can do what we know, and really break bread. Now if that was out of line, I’d say perhaps, I would agree. If you don’t know me that is one thing, perhaps you should have asked a few more questions rather than jump on the soap box. You haven’t bred dogs in three years and they have bigger fish to fry. Ok, I won’t even speak on it, LMFAO, I know better!

Understand that I’ll respect you as a man as long as that respect is reciprocated. Come at me sideways with the bullshit and I can shelf the nice guy shit also, and make personal. My heart isn’t on my sleeve, and I have had the same number for well over 20 years now.

“MOK, on the other hand, has never been a cheerleader, and thought the world of ALL the dogs mentioned, but he was just that impressed with 45 by comparison.”
I have ZERO issue with that at all, like I said MOK had some damn good dogs.

[Officially Retired]

Pause! Na Jack I am not a cheerleader, talker, or a scary guy at all, but you are not going to slide your slick shit this way at all.
I know MOK liked the dog; he tried to put me onto the Diamond Dude dog. Early, it just was not my thing. I have passed on a lot of good dogs, sold my share of winners and dogs that ended up at stud on a number of yards.

Thanks for the background.

Your mistake on not taking Diamond Dude dogs.

So to answer your directly, No. MOK did not get dogs from me, we both got dogs from BBC and most of those dogs came from Mr. Cooper and Coleman who I also know. I have no shame in admitting that at all! In fact Mr. Cooper was the one that told me about the Ruben dogs over 15 years ago and Coleman is the one that put me onto the Bullet dogs.

Very interesting. Would be curious what Cooper had to say to you about the Reuben dogs.

Understanding how things go with relationships, in the dogs. That’s not STFU, that was a question, because I didn’t see the 45 dog, hence to question.
I can appreciate a good dog, period! If the 45 dog was one of those dogs GREAT, I am not hating at all. In fact I was glad for him. I considered MOK and BBC both to be friends, I could care less what they were feeding. BBC had a lot of dogs to choose from not just Bullet dogs and I never thought they nor MOK were kennel blind.
It was a house that was divided and they had their issues, but I have never chose sides in any of that. I am sure you can understand that.
Yes this is your “story”, and more over it’s your board, so till your “story”. I am not worried about you booting me off the board, that is your prerogative, do what you think is best.

I don't want to boot you off at all; it looks like I made a mistake as to the intent of your post and for that I apologize.

That isn’t an internet challenge Jack, it was an invitation. As for dumbass, PLEASE, Jack come on! If I have managed to stay off your radar, than it means that things are in order and I am far smarter than you think. Furthermore, I have NEVER had to rely on these dogs to pay a single bill or shed a tear about a dime I have left on the table. I might be a lot of things but I am far from a “dumbass”.

It looks like I might be the dumbass then, yet again

Honestly, I am extremely irritable with "the typical" kinds of questions/responses people give.

In this case, it looks like I @$$-umed you were doubting the dog, asking me "if I had seen it" (knowing I had not), just to cast doubt on him.

That kind of thing I find annoying as $#!^, so I mistook your simple question for something it was not, so again I will apologize and retract my statements.

I shouldn’t “mean shit” to you, get your emotion under control. Hell I don’t know you from Adam, but it won’t stop me from saying you have bred some good dogs. What I know to be general excepted is you are a pompous and arrogant, and that’s even ok with me.

What I am is extremely irritable, by nature.

I have no tolerance for dumb questions, or setup questions (designed to do nothing but detract), and I tend to go off on people who do this.

Unfortunately, sometimes I misread the intent of the poster, and make a complete ass of myself

The issue comes when you want to question who or what I am. It really isn’t that hard to iron it all out as men, that’s what “how you really want to carry it” means. It can be a phone call, 10 lbs of chicken, or we can do what we know, and really break bread. Now if that was out of line, I’d say perhaps, I would agree. If you don’t know me that is one thing, perhaps you should have asked a few more questions rather than jump on the soap box.

Well said.

You haven’t bred dogs in three years and they have bigger fish to fry. Ok, I won’t even speak on it, LMFAO, I know better!

You are the one who misread this time.

I said I haven't bred dogs in 3 years, and (you can laugh all you want) but my dogs HAVE defeated much bigger fish than you, and dozens of times too.

PM me who you are. We seem to know all the same people down there.

You were getting dogs from MOK and BBC ... while MOK's best stud he bought from me ... and BBC bought 5 dogs from me.

Let me help you with the hierarchical interpretation here: "you" are buying dogs from folks who were buying dogs from me ... where do you think that puts "you" on the totem pole

Now, let's do some more math here: the ONE dog MOK bought from me, Diamond Dude, proved to be falling-down game and one of THE most influential stud dogs MOK ever had.
And, of the 5 dogs BBC bought from me, 4 out of 5 proved game as shit, even by his severe standards.

Because of the fucked up things BBC did to Pup Pup and Super Red, BBC had to sneak through the back door (and send someone else) to buy U-Nhan-Rha and Salsa from me, when I was getting out, because I refused to sell him a dog after the way he did Pup Pup and Super Red. (If you know the story, you know BBC put these game little dogs WAYYY uphill, permanently disfiguring both of them, Puppy losing his leg, and Super Red losing her bottom jaw, but he could never stop them ).

BBC called me years later, speaking nothing but Praise of U-Nhan-Rha, who passed every test he put on him (after going an hour, twice, on my yard), and saying he was out-fighting younger dogs, even with no teeth left as an elder dog. U-ey produced many winners for BBC as well, before he died of cancer.

So don't you ever laugh at the quality of my dogs again.
I have bred more winners and 100% DG dogs in any 6-month period, when I was breeding, than you ever have in your life.

Understand that I’ll respect you as a man as long as that respect is reciprocated. Come at me sideways with the bullshit and I can shelf the nice guy shit also, and make personal. My heart isn’t on my sleeve, and I have had the same number for well over 20 years now.

I will respect you, up to a point. And, sorry, having the same phone number for 20 years doesn't quite get me there

Let me know who you are by PM, tell me something about the level of dogs you've put out there, the TRUE effort and contributions you've made, and I will respect you more and more.

But show me a nothing record, or just tell me about "people you know," and that won't bring out too much admiration from me, sorry.

I have ZERO issue with that at all, like I said MOK had some damn good dogs.

Yes, I know MOK had, bred, and was around damned good dogs all his life. That is what I said to begin with.

And, as I said, he felt Jackson's 45 was that good.

Jack