INDIAN SONNY'S BOLIO DOGS -- BETTER THAN PATRICK'S?

[apeman]

I agree that Indian Sonny was doing the better/more interesting breedings with Bolio. However, I do not think they would have made any more of an impact then Sonny's dogs did in our actual historic timeline. I think they would be a private pocket of bad ass dogs that got out to other groups here and there.

On the flip side, what direction would Patrick have gone in if he never acquired Bolio? When I ponder this question I take into consideration the opinion of The Old Trucker, who was a partner of Pat in the early 70's. It was The Old Trucker's opinion that though Bolio probably would have Most likely KIB Tombstone the best decision Pat made was to breed to Tombstone and to acquire other dogs from Maloney. He believed the Maloney dogs added durability and gameness that carried those dogs over into the next couple decades.

With that said, I believe Pat would have bred the balls off of Keno, Tombstone, and Chico man. As well as added more dogs into his program such as Ruben, Luther, and Satch. I think the outcome would be dogs similar to Robert T and other dogs we've seen off the Maloney/Carver, Maloney/Eli/Carver blends except there would be a massive amount of those dogs world wide. Furthermore, if you factor in Patrick still adding any bolio and/or Noe Regrets dogs he could get his hands on we'd see some interesting things.

Irregardless Indian Sonny would have a bad ass pocket of dogs we'd salivate at owning. Nonetheless, Patrick would mass produce a game yet thicker bone line of dogs that would win game world wide for some and made even better by a few other breeders.

[Officially Retired]

I agree that Indian Sonny was doing the better/more interesting breedings with Bolio. However, I do not think they would have made any more of an impact then Sonny's dogs did in our actual historic timeline. I think they would be a private pocket of bad ass dogs that got out to other groups here and there.

Well said, agree.

On the flip side, what direction would Patrick have gone in if he never acquired Bolio? When I ponder this question I take into consideration the opinion of The Old Trucker, who was a partner of Pat in the early 70's. It was The Old Trucker's opinion that though Bolio probably would have Most likely KIB Tombstone the best decision Pat made was to breed to Tombstone and to acquire other dogs from Maloney. He believed the Maloney dogs added durability and gameness that carried those dogs over into the next couple decades.

I agree with this, and it's an interesting twist to take the dialogue. Again, I have nothing but respect for the Maloney dogs, etc., but to me they are just AVERAGE (but tough, game) dogs. I do not see any world beaters coming from the Maloney dogs, just high-percentages of dependable, super-game dogs that (ironically) can sometimes outlast and beat a world beater, though they themselves will never become one, so there's the rub

With that said, I believe Pat would have bred the balls off of Keno, Tombstone, and Chico man. As well as added more dogs into his program such as Ruben, Luther, and Satch. I think the outcome would be dogs similar to Robert T and other dogs we've seen off the Maloney/Carver, Maloney/Eli/Carver blends except there would be a massive amount of those dogs world wide. Furthermore, if you factor in Patrick still adding any bolio and/or Noe Regrets dogs he could get his hands on we'd see some interesting things.

I think Patrick clearly had good taste in dogs, as he also owned the Tater dog ... who, he says, was stolen by Indian Sonny and given back to Bert Clouse ... who matched the dog old and let him die. So, without Tater, Pat only legitimately had Tombstone as a stud, and illicitly Reuben (breeding him without telling anyone). Patrick got his fame as a breeder via Bolio (a stolen dog he hung papers on), so historically Pat Patrick is pretty much pond scum compared to his historical peers. Not that every breeder was a saint, I realize this, but I think Pat has to be looked at a little less admirably than men who bred their own great dogs and built a line on them (or who obtained their dogs legitimately).

Getting back to the subject of dogs, and top-shelf blood, I do agree Patrick could have succeeded with Tombstone and Maloney dogs, but not nearly as well. I think the Tombtone dogs were solid, but not as fast or high-ability as Bolio dogs. I do not see anyone dominating anything with pure Maloney dogs. I do not see 6x, 7x, 8xW Maloney dogs as I do Eli/Carver and Eli/Boilio dogs. Together, Bolio and Tombstone dogs created a legacy, but I just think (in hindsight) an even bigger legacy would have been created with the Eli/Carver/Bolio combination (that Sonny had access to) as opposed to the Bolio/Clouse/Tombstone combo Pat used.

Ronald Boyles kind of did this with his dogs, but I honestly never liked the Hank blood (everyone who owned him, sold him), and I just think Sonny's Eli/Bolio dogs were a lot cleaner-bred than Boyles'. Sonny was also well-connected to the best Eli resources on earth, back before there were the tag-alongs, which I feel is important also.

Irregardless Indian Sonny would have a bad ass pocket of dogs we'd salivate at owning. Nonetheless, Patrick would mass produce a game yet thicker bone line of dogs that would win game world wide for some and made even better by a few other breeders.

That is a pretty good assessment, I agree.

Jack