redboy dogs

[Officially Retired]

I don't believe that any line of dogs is a DG line of dogs. There are DG individuals within all lines of dogs, but invariably, there are individuals WITHIN those lines that produce that on a higher average than others. And I think that dogs that produce that higher than above average gameness are always exceptions. I can't say as I blame you for trying to put on the brakes from all the "game line" talk as I've done that before.

Well said.

Any line of dogs that are mass bred and sold off to everyone with money to burn will become inconsistent junk. There is simply no way around that. I'm a firm believer that most folks shouldn't even contemplate breeding dogs. Hell, I still feel that way about myself at times. The difference is I'm letting the dogs, and the decisions I make, show me the error of my ways OR giving me the golden fruit, so to speak. I'm trying to keep everything I do, in house, so I can fully see what works how I want and what doesn't, and like I said in previous posts, I think I'm finally getting a handle on that.

Agreed. And I have said the same thing for years: most people shouldn't even contemplate breeding dogs. Amen to that.

In regards to matches and what not, invariably the dogs that quit during schooling don't get counted so much. I feel the same as you about your own dogs. When something has made it to a certain point for me, they've never quit past that point. Matches are tricky in the sense of timing, when to pickup, not picking up, leaving them down, etc.

This is true. But, here again, when the dogs are legitimately DG, they just don't quit regardless.

For example, I can think of dozens of dogs "that have lost" because of their keep, their condition, etc. Lost but not QUIT.

I do believe health and condition can affect gameness. I also believe styles, frustrations, depth of pain/injury can affect gameness.
One dog may quit if he gets bit in the stomach, or kidneys, yet not care if he's bit on the legs. Etc.

Yet some dogs just DO NOT QUIT ... and, no matter what happens, they keep going until the last bit of life escapes them.
And I can think of certain families of dogs (and families within families) that will pretty much DO THIS (way more often than they'll quit).

THAT is what I call "a DG family" of dogs: where damned near every dog on the yard will go the route.
And there are yards like that.

If our mutual friend Keith were still in dogs, he would be the one person I'd go to if I seriously wanted game Redboy dogs. Short of that, I can't think of another person I'd go to for something as serious as gameness regarding that line of dogs.

Understood.

And, really, if I open my own eyes a little wider, I would see that what I am talking about are Lady In Red dogs ... or "Poncho dogs" (whose mother was a 3/4 Lady In Red dog) ... not just any "Bolio/Tombstone" dogs ...

In the same fashion, I think MOST of the modern-day Bolio/Tombstone dogs aren't even close to being a "game line" either. (I've been through many dozens of them on my way to finding out what I wanted.)
In all my years in dogs, I have never found ANY segment of the Bolio/Tombstone dogs that had the % of gameness as "Lady In Red" dogs or, ultimately, my Poncho dogs. Not one.

In the same fashion, you probably have never found any Redboy dogs that give you the same % of gameness as Frosty Paws.
In your eyes, and experience, there are generic "Redboy dogs" and there are Frosty dogs.
Ultimately, what all this dialogue brings out is that we have to look for key individuals with any line, and try to linebreed off of them.

Hollingsworth did so with Lady In Red, I did so so with Poncho, and you are doing so with Frosty.

This idea that "any Redboy dog is going to be game" is as false as believing "any Bolio dog is going to be game." Not so!

Yet, within each of these lines, you will find certain key breeders who've got certain key/prepotent dogs, where pretty much any dog off of THEM is going to be a game dog ... or awful close to it.
And this is where re-establishing new sub-families off of main families becomes key, following proven linebreeding patterns based on these key individual prepotent dogs.

So, if nothing else, this discussion has tried to clear the air of breeding "general lines" versus breeding to specific key individuals within these lines.

Jack