redboy dogs

[Officially Retired]

I didn't forget about the Bolio type dogs out there, but that's also why I said through some of the 90s. During the mid-late 90s, the Boyles line of dogs, especially bred from WCC, were all over the SDJ winning left and right. Champions, Grand Champions, ROM dogs, etc. They had a long, solid run of winning just as the Redboy/Jocko dogs did from the mid-late 80s through the early part of the 90s to probably the mid 90s.
I didn't comment so much on the later 90s or the 2000s as I simply don't remember one batch of dogs clearly standing out like in previous periods. I was only commenting on certain periods not over an entire three decade span.

Understood. The subject of winning is another can of worms, but my original complaint was these dogs are being bought and sold as THE GAMEST dogs ... but they're nothing even close to that.

I know that you had Frosty Paws, who was consistently producing that kind of gameness for you, and I know that there were other select individuals (such as Crews' Rocky, etc.) that were throwing more gameness than what is typical of the line (or any line). But I honestly believe these game-producing Redboy dogs are the EXCEPTION for their line.

"In general" I have seen (and had my dogs go into) a whole host of different Redboy dogs ... and the Redboy dogs almost invariably lose and quit.
Maybe "in general" the Redboy dogs might be out-scratching (say) Eli dogs, or whatever other kind of dogs, but when they have faced the truly dead game Hollingsworth dogs (and blends, such as my own) ... yeah, it typically goes awhile, but almost invariably it's the Redboy crosses that run out of gameness first. It has been nowhere near a 50-50% split.

Again, this is not trash talk, it's just what I have seen happen time and again.
As a line, they simply are nowhere near as reliably-game as the Hollingworth dogs were as a line.

Granted, as you have said, I think there are those breeders who breed extremely game segments of the Redboy family, but "as a whole" it is not a DG line of dogs.

I guess the point of my original rant was to put the brakes on the idea that "this is a game line" in general ... because "in general" it sure as hell is not ... not like what I am used to at any rate.

Maybe if the Hollingsworth dogs were overbred too, they would become inconsistent junk also, but I never really saw that happen.
Back when they were prevalent, if you were "another line" going into a Hollingsworth dog (or cross), you were pretty much looking to quit to it eventually or die ... and the Hollingsworth dog would either win eventually, on scratching, or it would die DEAD GAME. They simply would not quit. Literally, almost never.

And that is what I consider a truly game line to be ... it produces dogs that either win or die trying ... where "quits" are truly rare, unpleasant surprises.

Whoever said, "Be surprised when they scratch," was simply breeding the wrong line of dogs ...

Jack

[FrostyPaws]

Understood. The subject of winning is another can of worms, but my original complaint was these dogs are being bought and sold as THE GAMEST dogs ... but they're nothing even close to that.

I know that you had Frosty Paws, who was consistently producing that kind of gameness for you, and I know that there were other select individuals (such as Crews' Rocky, etc.) that were throwing more gameness than what is typical of the line (or any line). But I honestly believe these game-producing Redboy dogs are the EXCEPTION for their line.

"In general" I have seen (and had my dogs go into) a whole host of different Redboy dogs ... and the Redboy dogs almost invariably lose and quit.
Maybe "in general" the Redboy dogs might be out-scratching (say) Eli dogs, or whatever other kind of dogs, but when they have faced the truly dead game Hollingsworth dogs (and blends, such as my own) ... yeah, it typically goes awhile, but almost invariably it's the Redboy crosses that run out of gameness first. It has been nowhere near a 50-50% split.

Again, this is not trash talk, it's just what I have seen happen time and again.
As a line, they simply are nowhere near as reliably-game as the Hollingworth dogs were as a line.

Granted, as you have said, I think there are those breeders who breed extremely game segments of the Redboy family, but "as a whole" it is not a DG line of dogs.

I guess the point of my original rant was to put the brakes on the idea that "this is a game line" in general ... because "in general" it sure as hell is not ... not like what I am used to at any rate.

Maybe if the Hollingsworth dogs were overbred too, they would become inconsistent junk also, but I never really saw that happen.
Back when they were prevalent, if you were "another line" going into a Hollingsworth dog (or cross), you were pretty much looking to quit to it eventually or die ... and the Hollingsworth dog would either win eventually, on scratching, or it would die DEAD GAME. They simply would not quit. Literally, almost never.

And that is what I consider a truly game line to be ... it produces dogs that either win or die trying ... where "quits" are truly rare, unpleasant surprises.

Whoever said, "Be surprised when they scratch," was simply breeding the wrong line of dogs ...

Jack

I don't believe that any line of dogs is a DG line of dogs. There are DG individuals within all lines of dogs, but invariably, there are individuals WITHIN those lines that produce that on a higher average than others. And I think that dogs that produce that higher than above average gameness are always exceptions. I can't say as I blame you for trying to put on the brakes from all the "game line" talk as I've done that before.

Any line of dogs that are mass bred and sold off to everyone with money to burn will become inconsistent junk. There is simply no way around that. I'm a firm believer that most folks shouldn't even contemplate breeding dogs. Hell, I still feel that way about myself at times. The difference is I'm letting the dogs, and the decisions I make, show me the error of my ways OR giving me the golden fruit, so to speak. I'm trying to keep everything I do, in house, so I can fully see what works how I want and what doesn't, and like I said in previous posts, I think I'm finally getting a handle on that.

In regards to matches and what not, invariably the dogs that quit during schooling don't get counted so much. I feel the same as you about your own dogs. When something has made it to a certain point for me, they've never quit past that point. Matches are tricky in the sense of timing, when to pickup, not picking up, leaving them down, etc.

If our mutual friend Keith were still in dogs, he would be the one person I'd go to if I seriously wanted game Redboy dogs. Short of that, I can't think of another person I'd go to for something as serious as gameness regarding that line of dogs.

[Officially Retired]

I don't believe that any line of dogs is a DG line of dogs. There are DG individuals within all lines of dogs, but invariably, there are individuals WITHIN those lines that produce that on a higher average than others. And I think that dogs that produce that higher than above average gameness are always exceptions. I can't say as I blame you for trying to put on the brakes from all the "game line" talk as I've done that before.

Well said.

Any line of dogs that are mass bred and sold off to everyone with money to burn will become inconsistent junk. There is simply no way around that. I'm a firm believer that most folks shouldn't even contemplate breeding dogs. Hell, I still feel that way about myself at times. The difference is I'm letting the dogs, and the decisions I make, show me the error of my ways OR giving me the golden fruit, so to speak. I'm trying to keep everything I do, in house, so I can fully see what works how I want and what doesn't, and like I said in previous posts, I think I'm finally getting a handle on that.

Agreed. And I have said the same thing for years: most people shouldn't even contemplate breeding dogs. Amen to that.

In regards to matches and what not, invariably the dogs that quit during schooling don't get counted so much. I feel the same as you about your own dogs. When something has made it to a certain point for me, they've never quit past that point. Matches are tricky in the sense of timing, when to pickup, not picking up, leaving them down, etc.

This is true. But, here again, when the dogs are legitimately DG, they just don't quit regardless.

For example, I can think of dozens of dogs "that have lost" because of their keep, their condition, etc. Lost but not QUIT.

I do believe health and condition can affect gameness. I also believe styles, frustrations, depth of pain/injury can affect gameness.
One dog may quit if he gets bit in the stomach, or kidneys, yet not care if he's bit on the legs. Etc.

Yet some dogs just DO NOT QUIT ... and, no matter what happens, they keep going until the last bit of life escapes them.
And I can think of certain families of dogs (and families within families) that will pretty much DO THIS (way more often than they'll quit).

THAT is what I call "a DG family" of dogs: where damned near every dog on the yard will go the route.
And there are yards like that.

If our mutual friend Keith were still in dogs, he would be the one person I'd go to if I seriously wanted game Redboy dogs. Short of that, I can't think of another person I'd go to for something as serious as gameness regarding that line of dogs.

Understood.

And, really, if I open my own eyes a little wider, I would see that what I am talking about are Lady In Red dogs ... or "Poncho dogs" (whose mother was a 3/4 Lady In Red dog) ... not just any "Bolio/Tombstone" dogs ...

In the same fashion, I think MOST of the modern-day Bolio/Tombstone dogs aren't even close to being a "game line" either. (I've been through many dozens of them on my way to finding out what I wanted.)
In all my years in dogs, I have never found ANY segment of the Bolio/Tombstone dogs that had the % of gameness as "Lady In Red" dogs or, ultimately, my Poncho dogs. Not one.

In the same fashion, you probably have never found any Redboy dogs that give you the same % of gameness as Frosty Paws.
In your eyes, and experience, there are generic "Redboy dogs" and there are Frosty dogs.
Ultimately, what all this dialogue brings out is that we have to look for key individuals with any line, and try to linebreed off of them.

Hollingsworth did so with Lady In Red, I did so so with Poncho, and you are doing so with Frosty.

This idea that "any Redboy dog is going to be game" is as false as believing "any Bolio dog is going to be game." Not so!

Yet, within each of these lines, you will find certain key breeders who've got certain key/prepotent dogs, where pretty much any dog off of THEM is going to be a game dog ... or awful close to it.
And this is where re-establishing new sub-families off of main families becomes key, following proven linebreeding patterns based on these key individual prepotent dogs.

So, if nothing else, this discussion has tried to clear the air of breeding "general lines" versus breeding to specific key individuals within these lines.

Jack