Who is the Better Dogman?

[Officially Retired]

We have bred, raised and campaigned several winners. Several winners, who beat top quality dog men. We beat the absolute best in our area, we've beat some great ones out of our area. We can't put those names out in this forum, because last time we tried to share information, we received messages BASHING us for doing so. We will say this, our dogs are 5-0 this year. We have 2 Champions in China right now and a gyp, they say has the hardest mouth ever. (To each his own on that though). Our Deadlift/Bolio cross is 19-0 since we did the cross in the early-mid 2000's. Now, don't get us wrong.. We have lost some shows over the last decade and a half, but most dog men would kill for our record. Now, on to our Mayday stuff, our main stud dog has been bred 5 times with a total of 18 pups. Out of those 18 pups, 13 are of age and he has 7 POR points to his credit. That's a little bit about what our dogs have done.

I understand about not wanting to put out names, but the flipside to that is (without them) there is no claim of "beating the best."

I can believe you with the 19-0 record with "Bolio/Deadlift" dogs ... as that is similar to the 18-1 Record the Warlock/Ginger breeding had ... it just makes things a little more interesting and believable to have some names/pedigrees to look at.

Now, We weren't referring to YOUR dogs or YOU as a breeder Jack. We're speaking of Stone City Kennels. Awesome Baby did produce well, BUT - Was it her? Or was it the males she was bred to? Seriously, she only produced 4 winners in 3 breedings. And because she was a cold gyp, there's ALOT of dogs down from her TODAY that follow HER traits as an individual, COLD. Being that, that's the blood we run. Redboy/Jocko/Tombstone/Bolio. We have done the research, if you wind up the Awesome Baby dogs and/or the Buck dogs too tight, they throw ALOT of cold dogs. Period. You HAVE to use that stock as an outcross only or the percentages drop tremendously.

I know you weren't referring to my dogs, as I have had less than 5 cold dogs in my life, but I was mainly referring to game bums.

My point is, Awesome Baby produced better than "well"; she was the best producing bitch in the history of dogs, save Honeybunch. From 3 breedings she produced Gr Ch Yellowbuck (6xW), Ch Nico (4xW, ROM), Ch Luger (4xW), Ch Miss Piggy (3xW), Dixie (2xW), etc. That is 19-1 also. Okay, so there may be some "cold dogs" in there too, but I can't help but notice the Champions and Grand Champions as well

This isn't Stone City claiming to have a 19-1 record, but giving no names, this is a verifiable record and list of winners. I don't see anything like this coming from hardly any other bitches, good peds or not, great ability or not. You seem to want to give credit to the studs Awesome Baby was bred to, but the fact is those studs were also bred to other bitches, yet didn't produce the same quality dogs as when bred to Awesome Baby. Something was clearly special about her, as an individual.

We understand genetics perfectly, it's something we study. One of our friends, KAG, knows more about genetics that anyone we have EVER met in these dogs. He taught us ALOT. So, we understand about traits skipping generations.

No one understands genetics perfectly, and I don't know who KAG is or what his record is as a breeder, but no one is perfect.

If you understood genetics perfectly, you wouldn't question the skipped generation or ask "why" breed to a dog that, itself, is less than perfect (provided it has truly excellent dogs up close in its ped). You would already know the answer why. You would also be aware that truly badass dogs sometimes can't produce well, and that many deeply-game, inbred dogs may not have match ability ... but can throw it better than most match dogs. This is indisputable.

Now, to answer some more of your questions.. We're not telling ANYONE what they should do with THEIR dogs. To each their own. We just know what we do with our dogs. Now, we weren't saying if the dog COULD NO LONGER work, it had to be culled. That was taken out of context. What we meant was, if the dog is cold to begin with, why keep it around? We only keep performance dogs, so if the bitch wasn't performing, then she would have to go. We wouldn't keep a dog, solely based on pedigree.

I understand what you mean about cold dogs. I tried to keep and work with one, just to experiment, but (ultimately) I felt the same as you, that I was wasting my time, and it was very hard to want to go breed to "him" (even though I personally knew how game his parents were) ... when I could breed to some truly talented World Class dogs on my yard ... with parents that were just as good or better. Ironically, that "cold gene" also happened to come down from the most talented dog I ever had. No one can deny that many cold dogs (Loposay's Buster ROM, Sorrells' Bull ROM, Little Gator ROM, Awesome Baby ROM, Polly ROM, etc.) have produced some truly, game, truly great dogs.

I may not have pursued breeding to my own cold dog, but I do understand why (if the blood was there), someone would give it a shot, especially if they liked the results.

There are far too many QUALITY, PERFORMANCE dogs that are well bred. You know? So, why hope those quality genetic traits the cold gyp comes from pass through her into her offspring? Now, if traits can skip a generation, then it would be completely feasible to think her offspring would be able to throw COLD dogs, right? That's not something we're willing to risk.

Anytime you breed dogs, you "risk" breeding a cold, cur, and/or no-talent dog. There is simply no way around this.

I absolutely agree that, through selection, you can minimize (or maximize ) the "risk" of getting shitty dogs ... so it makes sense to minimize that risk by avoiding known pitfalls ... yet, ultimately, the "risk" is unavoidable no matter what you use. I absolutely agree that you should ALWAYS select the best performers you can use, as a rule; my point was in not killing the game littermates. We got thrown off track a bit with the cold Awesome Baby, but my main point of contention with you was saying you'd cull the game dogs with no ability. Killing game dogs is not cool (or too smart) IMO, even if they have better littermates.

If the dogs aren't good enough (in our eyes) then why take out just "pretty good" dogs? We believe you should only bring out the best your can breed/acquire, otherwise like EWO said, you're not betting on the dog at that point, but yourself. Yes, we have beaten titled dogs, we've beat alot of really good dogs that were off ALOT of great dogs from really good dog men. When people like TCF are contacting us, to buy our stock, that says something about the quality of our stock, right? So, yes, we have "World Beaters" over here.

Again, I completely agree with trying to breed the best that you can ... and there have been many, many "titled dogs" that have fallen to my dogs as well ... and a Who's-Who list of dogmen along with that. My point is, not every "title-winning" dog is off of a badass animal. Many (including Gr Ch Buck) were off of inbred, game bums. To say that every dog needs to be a badass match dog to "get bred" (or produce great dogs) is simply folly. Many of the greatest dogs in history were not sired by great dogs themselves, but rather by game bums inbred off great dogs.

And we do understand what you're saying Jack, but we don't keep dogs for breeding purposes ONLY, our yard is NOT a Brood yard. We are NOT breeders. It's a performance yard, meaning if they aren't performing, then they don't make the cut. We don't have the luxury of having acres and acres of space to house 20+ dogs. So, we don't keep dogs "just in-case". It's like college football; did you think they put players on the Heisman list, just because they "TRIED REALLY HARD", but didn't have the ability to put up the statistics needed? Not at all. Do you think TOP Athletic Programs are giving FULL RIDE SCHOLARSHIPS to the average High School football player? No.

Again, I completely understand the "small yard" thing. My point was most small yards shoot themselves in the foot, sooner or later, because what they keep will not produce as well as the game dog they got rid of. They also don't have enough breeding experience to understand how things work. All large-scale breeding operations would agree with what I am saying, because they have the large-scale perspective to see the whole picture.

Your college football example is only valid from a superficial perspective. If you want to take a closer look, not every Heisman player was sired by another Heisman father; most, in fact, were not ... so upon closer inspection your argument here supports mine, not yours. I never suggested giving "game bums" a scholarship ... or betting heavy on them in a match ... what I am saying is not to kill them. What you're counseling is killing the players who try hard, but aren't selected for the Heisman, and that my friend is borderline retarded. I would never kill anything for showing heart, for trying its best, never quitting at any time, whether it had ability or not. The willingness to try as hard as possible, even in the face of death, is something special to me ... and it should be to all dogmen.

We do not call these dogs "ability dogs" ... we call them GAME DOGS ... and, when they're game, they deserve to be honored and respected, not killed off. In fact, Frank Fitzwater summed it up best when he said, "Boys, breed your game dogs and you're get your fighting dogs."

Not necessarily trying to argue, just the way we have done things from the time we started in these dogs. Just never understood the need/want to breed a cold dog with a good pedigree, when there are plenty of working dogs, that have good pedigrees. Cheers,ToTheDogs

I can understand what you're saying about the cold dog thing, but yet I can also see why it can be worth a shot for some.

I will never understand, or agree, with killing ANY truly game dog, ever, so long as it is in good health and has a decent temperament. Truly game dogs, especially if they're inbred on some truly great dog, are oftentimes THE most valuable dog on the yard ... the proverbial Goose That Lays The Golden Eggs

Jack


.