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Thread: THE HARDCORE FARMER

  1. #1

    Idea THE HARDCORE FARMER



    THE HARDCORE FARMER
    What would you think of someone who came up to you and told you he was going to become a “Hardcore Farmer?” Forget the sissy stuff, he told you, this man was going to be hardcore.

    This man told you he had decided to get into the farming business, but he told you he wasn’t going to do “all of the bullshit” associated with extended nurturing and agricultural cultivation, learning about plant husbandry, botanical nutrition, etc., as this involved “too much work” and “too much B.S.”

    “Forget about planting good seeds in fertile soil,” he told you, and “Forget about watering, nurturing, and cultivating!” This person made it clear that he was just going to throw his seeds wherever he damned well pleased, and then he was not going to lift a finger to help the progress of his growing crops. “The rain will water them!” he told you in his best tough-guy voice. “And who gives a shit about the bugs?”, he said, “Only the strong will survive!”

    Remember now, this man was “hardcore,” and he was making a point to let you (and the world) know that he had “tough standards.” This man made it absolutely clear that he wasn’t going to lift a finger to care for his crops, or to control diseases and parasites (to ensure that as many developing plants as possible survived and thrived for the season) ... NOPE! This man basically told you that whatever crops happened to live through his “tough standards” were therefore “the best,” and these were going to be the ones eaten and taken to market.

    In fact, by God, when whatever crops that happened to live through his refusal to care for them began to bear fruit for this man ... and when those first-forming fruits began to take on their gradual appearance as fruits ... why at that very moment this man was going to immediately pluck them off the vine ... and he was going to eat them right then and there ... “to see how they tasted.”

    Fuck allowing his young fruits to RIPEN, this man said if what he planted were “real crops,” then they’d taste good and be ready to harvest immediately when they first began to take shape. And if the fruits of his “efforts” didn’t taste good immediately, right after they first began forming, then those crops and the seeds that they came from “just weren’t worth a fuck.” (I mean, hey man, allowing fruits to fully-age and ripen before expecting them to taste good “is for pussies,” right?)

    What would you think of this man?
    Would you be impressed by hiss “tough standards” ... or would you think this man was an absolute idiot?
    You might even consider this man to be basically insane ... with no concept of Natural Processes or, really, the world around him?
    Seriously, would any of you think this individual was an intelligent man ... or a “real farmer” ... of the “toughest and manliest kind?”

    I think we all know what the answer to this is. I would be surprised if anybody reading this can’t clearly see that this man would be a fukking imbecile, who had no concept of anything associated with successful agricultural & farming principles ... or even of Nature and Life itself?

    Well, folks, that is what every so-called “Hardcore Dogman” is, he’s a fukking imbecile. The same principles that apply to the Natural Order of Things in farming crops *also* apply to the Natural Order of Things in farming dogs. Because that is all we are, is dog farmers: we “sow the seeds” in our breedings, we “nurture the shoots” in our developing pups, we must “control the bugs” by various measures during all life stages, and finally, we must “allow our crops to fully-RIPEN” before we attempt to harvest (test) them by letting our animals mature fully.

    And yet we see dullards every single day in these dogs, violating many of the same basic principles ... sometimes every single principle ... of this “farming process.” Most of these fools are simply angry, stupid young men, with something to “prove,” and these angry, young idiots forever wonder WHY most of their dogs never “taste good” and perform well for them ... while they blithely do every single thing wrong in raising these dogs as owners. Really, it is beyond stupid, it is insane.

    Folks, The Process of Nature cannot be “sped-up” by some magic pill, or by some “tough standard,” and The Natural Processes cannot be ignored either. You must simply bow your head and develop the wisdom to accept these processes for what they are: THE WAY LIFE IS. These processes must plainly and simply be understood, and they must plainly and simply be allowed-for and followed, if you expect to be successful consistently.

    If you young dogmen start looking at your role as a dogman ... as really being “a farmer” of a different kind of “crop” that you are trying to harvest ... then you will at that moment begin to see your job as caregiver in its proper perspective.

    You will begin to realize that being “hardcore” with your developing “crops” is absolutely stupid ... but that being an attentive, caring, and nurturing caregiver to your pups and dogs during their developmental stages is absolutely critical, in order for your to succeed and get the best results on a consistent basis

    Furthermore, when it comes time to “harvest” your dogs, by finding out what they’re made of, you will also realize that “testing them young” is the committing the same stupidity as trying to harvest too early before your fruits are fully ripened. Testing young dogs is every bit as stupid as expecting unripened fruit to taste good. It is every bit that stupid. Just because a young dog “looks like” an adult doesn’t mean he IS ONE YET! Just because he “acts good” for five minutes in a bump doesn’t mean he’s ready for the whole deal yet. Similarly, just because an apple takes shape in the form of an apple, doesn’t mean it is quite ready to be *eaten* yet. IT MUST BE ALLOWED TO FULLY-RIPEN.

    The problem is, it is easy for even an imbecile to tell when a piece of fruit is “ripe,” but it is much harder for the average person to tell when a complex animal is fully-mature. This is why there is so much disparity in practice with these dogs as opposed to farming crops: any idiot can see when a piece of fruit is ripe, but not any idiot can tell when a young dog is ready.

    To help you, as a general rule a dog doesn’t become fully-mature and in his prime until he is 2½ to 3 years old. And yet most people are putting their dogs through pretty tough ordeals by 12-16 months. I am sorry, but there is just no way in hell that some 16-month-old pup is going to be able to beat his mirror-opposite who is 3 years old. There’s just no way in hell. In the same fashion, there is no 17 year old boy who is going to be the same man as he himself will be when he is 25 to 30 years old. There’s just no way in hell.

    I am not going to get into the subjects of schooling and testing, except to say that you just begin to *school* your young dogs at 18-24 months of age, but you never should get to the point of *testing* them until they are at least 2½ to 3 years of age and fully-mature (or “ripe”). What I am telling you is simply a Biological Fact of when a dog generally reaches full social (not sexual, but SOCIAL) maturity.

    And it is precisely because of the extended maturity rate, and the more complex involvement in raising animals over crops, that makes “dog farming” more complicated than “plant farming.” Plant crops don’t take as long to develop as dogs do, nor do plants require as many different levels of nurturing as dogs do, and plants are also easier to identify as being “ripe” than dogs are. But that does not mean the same Principles of Nature don’t apply to farming dogs as they do to farming crops. The same principles *do* still apply to dogs, but it just takes a more insightful “farmer” to notice and to pay attention to these processes.

    Unfortunately, because of the complexity involved in the developmental processes of dogs, there are legions and legions of so-called dogmen who stupidly violate every one of these “farming principles” as a matter of daily practice, simply because they are not subtle or bright enough to see these principles for what they are. But make no mistake about it: these same basic Laws of Nature are involved ... and they apply to our dogs every bit as much as they apply to farming crops. And while every so-called “hardcore dogman” will puff-out his chest and brag about how “hardcore” he is, the fact of the matter is every single one of them is nothing but an imbecile who has no concept of The Natural Order of Things in Life.

    Therefore, I hope this article here has gotten some of you more intelligent young dogmen to re-evaluate what you’re doing ... and to make these Natural Laws work for your dogs, by providing the best care that you possibly can, and you will have a HUGE advantage over all the rest of the idiots out there who FAIL to do so.

    If this means you have to read this article a hundred times, in order for it to sink-in to the point where you change your stupid practices into smart practices, then you’d better start reading

    Jack

  2. #2
    I've heard it said/read that most of what you describe above is the difference between breeders and "action" men. I agree with that to some degree. Most things are not absolute. I know men that are both of those things. True, honest dogmen that I am proud to have known.

    Breeders are more interested in preserving and perpetuating the breed and are genuinely concerned about the well-being and care given to the dog to make it all come together. They are the ones who painstakingly plan breedings and search out the traits that they feel will give the produced results the best chance to shine. They love the dogs, first and foremost, and take pride in them. It is very hard to part with any of them.

    It is hard to part with them for many reasons. For the most part it is because of people like you describe above. Fuckin' imbeciles that waste dogs. Imbeciles that do not love the dogs or care for them in any way other than to gain some kind of quasi-pride or ego trip. Retards that cannot understand or recognize a good dog even when the evidence is glaringly obvious. I cannot stand them or being around them, and it makes me into a bulldog recluse..lol...

    I do not breed dogs very much any more because I simply don't know enough good dogmen to place them where they need to go. I cannot trust people to do right by them and it really matters to me. I've had too many bad experiences and seen too much. It really is a sad commentary on my part and I hope it is just me and my experiences.....but I don't think it is.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Osagedogman2015 View Post
    I've heard it said/read that most of what you describe above is the difference between breeders and "action" men. I agree with that to some degree. Most things are not absolute. I know men that are both of those things. True, honest dogmen that I am proud to have known.
    I think "action men" also can very easily subscribe to what I have written.

    Earl Tudor, for example, made the statement, "I am not betting on his being game, I am betting on his winning."

    You don't have to think a dog is dead game to believe he has a shot at winning.

    A dog also doesn't have to be dead game to be a great producer either.

    Hell, for that matter, what I said applies to EVERY trait a dog can have (mouth/air or any other trait).

    NO trait has to be 100% for the dog to be a valuable animal, either as a producer or a performer



    Quote Originally Posted by Osagedogman2015 View Post
    Breeders are more interested in preserving and perpetuating the breed and are genuinely concerned about the well-being and care given to the dog to make it all come together. They are the ones who painstakingly plan breedings and search out the traits that they feel will give the produced results the best chance to shine. They love the dogs, first and foremost, and take pride in them. It is very hard to part with any of them.
    Again, I believe providing optimal care benefits both breeders and competitors.



    Quote Originally Posted by Osagedogman2015 View Post
    It is hard to part with them for many reasons. For the most part it is because of people like you describe above. Fuckin' imbeciles that waste dogs. Imbeciles that do not love the dogs or care for them in any way other than to gain some kind of quasi-pride or ego trip. Retards that cannot understand or recognize a good dog even when the evidence is glaringly obvious. I cannot stand them or being around them, and it makes me into a bulldog recluse..lol...
    We are definitely on the same page here



    Quote Originally Posted by Osagedogman2015 View Post
    I do not breed dogs very much any more because I simply don't know enough good dogmen to place them where they need to go. I cannot trust people to do right by them and it really matters to me. I've had too many bad experiences and seen too much. It really is a sad commentary on my part and I hope it is just me and my experiences.....but I don't think it is.
    No, it is not just you, by any stretch.

    This is exactly why I will never put myself in a position to be dependent on dog sales for income again ... it is too easy "to talk yourself into" a sale, and regret it afterward

    If I get back in, I will have my income generated from other ventures, and be as selective with who gets my dogs as I am with which dogs I breed together.

    Thanks for your input!

    Jack

  4. #4
    I forgot to add in my post that I really liked your analogy comparing farming and raising dogs. I hope everyone will read it, comprehend it, and benefit from it. Hell, maybe we can drop some flyers out of some drones and hope something hits/affects the masses...

    Good breeders need good competitors and vice-verse to achieve what most of us want.

  5. #5
    I would probably say I'm a type of hardcore farmer. I don't ruin young dogs. There's simply no point. That's wasteful in the worst possible way.

    I will, and do, look at dogs pretty hard I think, but my hard consists of finding like quality dogs to look at mine with. Seeing a dog of mine whip a lower quality dog in schooling is ok at the beginning. It's not ok when I'm deciding to put my money on said animal.

    And the dogs that aren't competitive? Well, they get the gameness treatment, and that's where whatever adjective you want to insert cones into play.

  6. #6
    This is a great topic. One of "those" topics for me concerning the dogs. My first experiences in the dogs was with a guy who basically only matched dogs. He maybe bred three times in 10 or so years. He kept 10-12 dogs and at least 8 or so would be open to the world and the other 4 or so would be ones that look like they might earn a chain spot.

    He fell into the hard core farmer category and in turn I did so too. It was never about preserving or perpetuating, or even checking or testing, it was all about winning. He had a couple of quotes similar to the Tudor quote above. "I'm not sure if my dog is game but on Saturday night you better be sure your is". Actually a ton of those lines. " I can't tell you what he will do next time only what he did do last time".

    He culled hard. Harder than most and a lot of those dogs could have maybe went on to produce. Removing a cur was never considered culling, it was just understood. His "culled hard" because a lot of game dogs didn't have the tools to win, and that is a hard decision to make. Thus he 'culled hard'. Most of his dogs came from the same breeder. I 'learned' from him early on it was easier to buy a young dog than to deal with the whole puppy picture. I have had a number of dogs I should have bred, or bred more. Like most men, in every facet of life, he has a disease called " wishedihadof ". "I wished I had of" did this and that. His was to breed more of the dogs that performed. Me too.

    As far as care, his was impeccable. His dogs were in perfect health, clean living quarters, the whole nine. He nurtured young dogs, and each had his own time to turn on. Once he felt they were on, they faced the trials and tribulations of being a game dog on the yard of a dog man who matched dogs. There were a lot of game dogs that did not have the tools to win and they did not maintain a chain spot. Some went back to the breeder as a brood dog, some simply did not maintain a chain spot. On more than one occasion I have seen him give a winning dog back because the next dog coming at that weight was better. The breeder was the only one who could get him/her back. If the breeder could not make room or have space or have time the dog simply lost his chain spot. He sold two dogs in a 10-15 year span.

    For him, it was never about the money. It was never about the preserving or perpetuating a family of game dogs. It was never about "gameness". It was only, and I mean only about winning. Since I was new, I learned what he taught and I just assumed it was like that everywhere. In time I figured some things out and changed direction, slightly, but changed direction nonetheless.

    Looking back I missed out on a ton of opportunity, and my mentor even more. But as I have said before, it takes all kinds to make the dog game go around. In a lot of respects he was the hardcore farmer, and I guess by default I have been as well. It has a lot to do with being mission orientated and maintain the same 'mission statement' throughout.

    Great topic. Should be a good thread. EWO

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Osagedogman2015 View Post
    Hell, maybe we can drop some flyers out of some drones and hope something hits/affects the masses...

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyPaws View Post
    I would probably say I'm a type of hardcore farmer. I don't ruin young dogs. There's simply no point. That's wasteful in the worst possible way.
    Agreed.

    However, judging/culling young dogs is just as wasteful.

    Judging/culling young dogs is like trying to judge the tastiness of fruit before you've let the fruit ripen.

    Not too bright IMO.



    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyPaws View Post
    I will, and do, look at dogs pretty hard I think, but my hard consists of finding like quality dogs to look at mine with. Seeing a dog of mine whip a lower quality dog in schooling is ok at the beginning. It's not ok when I'm deciding to put my money on said animal.
    I look at dogs to see if they have ANY distinguishably-excellent characteristics, and if so, how many distinguishably-excellent characteristics.

    My preference is speed, style, air, intensity, and intelligence. If I can get a fast, slick, longwinded, smart dog ... that puts out that pressure ... and has good air ... then I am going to beat my opponent 9x out of 10, by beating him to the punch, getting what I want, while preventing him from doing what he wants ... and I can outlast him if I have to also.

    As far as gameness goes, I am softer on a dog than most, and yet harder on a dog than most

    By that I mean, I stopped seriously game-testing my dogs a long time ago, which means I do NOT beat my dogs down anymore, and call that "a test." To me, a serious game test is stupid, and takes too much out of them. I NEVER make a smaller dog get beat down by a bigger dog. NEVER. However, what I will do is simply watch how a fully-schooled dog performs against another quality dog, for as long as it takes that dog to get pretty tired, especially if he's slightly behind. If I see ANY sign that they're not 100% into what they're doing, I just don't want that dog anymore. I don't need to see it go another 30 min, until it finally does quit; nor beat the dog down till he "can't move"; I just don't want any dog the moment I see something I don't like in the animal.

    I have rolled dogs 15 min and not liked the way they fought.
    I have rolled (short-winded) dogs for :25-:30 and felt they were extremely game because of how absolutely tired they were ... and yet never once stopped giving it everything they had ... always trying to finish ... even though they were practically suffocating to the heat/exhaustion.
    I have rolled truly-talented, pacing dogs for 1:30, off the chain/unworked, and never seen a bad move ... and not really been able to see a whole lot, gameness-wise, because I knew I'd have to watch them for another hour before they became truly exhausted. But I felt they were so good, and so long-winded, that 99% of what's out there would quit to these dogs, because they were so talented/longwinded.

    I have no set time for what I do, all I know is I rate ALL a dog's characteristics, and if I see something I don't like, gameness-wise, I don't want the dog anymore.

    I will add that I have also rolled young dogs, seen them quit in :05, but KNEW it was because they weren't fully-started ... sat on them ... and have them prove very game later when they were fully mature.

    I have also seen young dogs stop ... and never make it, given every reasonable chance.

    But I WILL give young dogs the benefit of the doubt ...

    However, once they're fully-mature (3+), and once I see they're truly, fully-on, then they need to have 100% commitment in their eyes and never make a bad move again.



    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyPaws View Post
    And the dogs that aren't competitive? Well, they get the gameness treatment, and that's where whatever adjective you want to insert cones into play.
    Dogs that aren't competitive, athletically, need to have extreme gameness. Most people agree on that.

    If they also have extreme air + rugged durability, then they can actually defeat so-called "high ability" match dogs, in the end.

    Again, for ANY dog to be truly useful, it has to have SOME kind of excellence ... and the more categories a dog rates "excellent" in, the better.

    The less competitive characteristics a dog has, the more useless that animal is (unless it is highly-inbred on a truly great dog, and is able to throw those "skipped" great characteristics in its offspring).

    Too many people forget that last part and waste (what could have been) an awesome producer: ability can skip a generation, just like a red nose can.

    Jack

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyPaws View Post
    I would probably say I'm a type of hardcore farmer. I don't ruin young dogs. There's simply no point. That's wasteful in the worst possible way.

    I will, and do, look at dogs pretty hard I think, but my hard consists of finding like quality dogs to look at mine with. Seeing a dog of mine whip a lower quality dog in schooling is ok at the beginning. It's not ok when I'm deciding to put my money on said animal.

    And the dogs that aren't competitive? Well, they get the gameness treatment, and that's where whatever adjective you want to insert cones into play.
    I think what you described yourself as is quite different than what Jack was describing as "Hardcore". Even a type of "Hardcore". At least the way I interpreted it anyway.

    What you described sounds like a dogman that knows exactly what he is looking for and someone that has a good grasp on what to expect. There is nothing wrong with testing your dogs the proper way when they are ready and "ripe" and have been given the attention that is needed. At least I don't think there is. That is where experience and wisdom comes in to play.

    These dogs didn't evolve from good dogmen pussyfooting around and making excuses for dogs that don't measure up. They were molded in the fire of physical and mental struggle, wrought with pain and adversity, for untold years upon years. It needs to be done intelligently and purposefully though, without the ignorance that Jack was describing as "Hardcore".

  10. #10
    Sure Osage, which is why I stated up front I don't ruin young dogs.

    That being said though, I personally don't think a serious game test is stupid. Have I done it with every dog? No, but I've done it with plenty. A serious game test is tantamount to a serious match. That's how I look at it.

    I never make dogs push weight in any kind of gameness check, but I do believe, and always have, that gameness should be the backbone of a program.

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