breeding theory

[Kimo615]

Hey Realpits, your right man. I'm not worried really on if he quit and my pup being a quitter as its proven than dogs that quit or curr can still produce. So I guess I got a 50/50 shot at getting a good bulldog out of the breeding. I was mainly wondering about Ceaser and Crocodile both and asking if anyone knows or has seen them perform. Maybe even have pups off either and opinions on Ceaser and Croc as producers. From what I understand, Croc himself as what I'm told is "Great". That's why he was doubled up on in his last breeding. That's about all I know on him other than his blood is highly sought after in Mexico and on the West Coast. (Little Gator) blood that is. Crocs a 50/50 Chinaman/Little Gator Dog. Ceaser heavy Frisco and is breeding back to Machete which is heavy Frisco to. Just dont know much else about either.

[Officially Retired]

Well, let's pretend for a moment that gameness is "absolute" (which it isn't), but to say talent doesn't matter is wrong IMO.

I have always selected for extreme gameness in my breeding choices (Hammer, the Hollingsworth dogs, No Regrets, etc.) ... but only when I also selected for a winning style did my win/loss record as a breeder begin to skyrocket.

Selecting for "gameness only" ... my win record for the first couple of years was just at 57% ...

When I begin to put some combat theory into the mix, and specifically select for a controlling head style, that would pace itself, then my record quickly went up over 75% ... and hasn't been below 80%, in any year, for well over 15 years now.

So Talent is definitely important too.

People who only breed to dogs they beat the hell out of, that "live and scratch" through their ordeals, will NEVER have a record much over 50%, I don't believe.

[STA8541]

Well, let's pretend for a moment that gameness is "absolute" (which it isn't), but to say talent doesn't matter is wrong IMO.

I have always selected for extreme gameness in my breeding choices (Hammer, the Hollingsworth dogs, No Regrets, etc.) ... but only when I also selected for a winning style did my win/loss record as a breeder begin to skyrocket.

Selecting for "gameness only" ... my win record for the first couple of years was just at 57% ...

When I begin to put some combat theory into the mix, and specifically select for a controlling head style, that would pace itself, then my record quickly went up over 75% ... and hasn't been below 80%, in any year, for well over 15 years now.

So Talent is definitely important too.

People who only breed to dogs they beat the hell out of, that "live and scratch" through their ordeals, will NEVER have a record much over 50%, I don't believe.

Fair enough. You can make any dog that ever lived quit, if you try hard enough. I've heard of all kinds of talented, frontrunning curs that are "just game enough" not to quit while they are ahead. Let them get a little fatigued, a little dominated, a little tired, a little thirsty, etc., & you see them sing a different tune. Jack, you are one of the breeders that, from what I have seen thus far, were definitely shooting for gameness (while ladling on all the other bits like controlling head style, etc.). TFX is definitely another guy who looks for gameness in his stock, based on his posts. And I can barely get my head out of your Hollingsworth book! Those pups seemed like (mostly) hella game beasts. But I know if you are looking for a match prospect, yes, having some level of ability can do nothing but increase your chances of winning, so long as he's got that deep gameness we (should) all treasure.

Incidentally, is that what you mean by the term "stupid game?" Just a no-talent plug that will keep scratching to a killing?

[Officially Retired]

Fair enough. You can make any dog that ever lived quit, if you try hard enough. I've heard of all kinds of talented, frontrunning curs that are "just game enough" not to quit while they are ahead. Let them get a little fatigued, a little dominated, a little tired, a little thirsty, etc., & you see them sing a different tune. Jack, you are one of the breeders that, from what I have seen thus far, were definitely shooting for gameness (while ladling on all the other bits like controlling head style, etc.). TFX is definitely another guy who looks for gameness in his stock, based on his posts. And I can barely get my head out of your Hollingsworth book! Those pups seemed like (mostly) hella game beasts. But I know if you are looking for a match prospect, yes, having some level of ability can do nothing but increase your chances of winning, so long as he's got that deep gameness we (should) all treasure.
Incidentally, is that what you mean by the term "stupid game?" Just a no-talent plug that will keep scratching to a killing?

I don't want to breed to "front running curs" ether.

Basically, I look for a dog that never makes a bad move while he's doing the things I like to see dogs do.

If the dog gets that far away look in his eye, or in any way loses his focus or intensity, then I don't trust that dog anymore.

I stopped "game testing" my dogs in the mid-90s. By that I mean, beating the dogshit out of them and then seeing "if they scratch" to a total asswhipping.

To me this is stupid and abusive.

What I do is just see how my dogs look and perform and act while having a legitimate tussle with something GOOD their weight.

If they can go and go and go, and either win (or get picked up in a close one) still having total focus, then to me they are game enough to be competitive with whatever is out there.

The first shitty sign I see, I no longer have any interest in that dog. I don't need to beat the quit out of him.

Once I see any lack of total focus, I no longer trust or want that animal.

I don't have to beat up any dog to the point of disfigurement or whatnot to "see" gameness in him (or shit in him). All I have to do is roll him out with what I know is a damned good dog ... and watch that dog's performance like a hawk ... to see if that dog is competitive, and seriously focused enough, to be in open competition.

The rest is intangibles, shape, health, etc. that no one can plan for.

Jack

[STA8541]

I don't want to breed to "front running curs" ether.

Basically, I look for a dog that never makes a bad move while he's doing the things I like to see dogs do.

If the dog gets that far away look in his eye, or in any way loses his focus or intensity, then I don't trust that dog anymore.

What I do is just see how my dogs look and perform and act while having a legitimate tussle with something GOOD their weight.

If they can go and go and go, and either win (or get picked up in a close one) still having total focus, then to me they are game enough to be competitive with whatever is out there.

The first shitty sign I see, I no longer have any interest in that dog. I don't need to beat the quit out of him.

Once I see any lack of total focus, I no longer trust or want that animal.

Good post, thanks Jack. Seems like common sense which, as I know, is not all that common.

[EGK]

I like clean family bred dogs or intense line bred dogs that carry consistency and are game dogs that I can build on. Not so much in to inbreeding except at need or in preparation moving forward. Not to just hold on to or preserve, meaning you still have to show you have what I bred for. The individuals make up the blood and pedigree so I hate the preservation, bred to produce breedings, or its in the blood. I also do realize there are exceptions especially to those that have been with a fam long as exceptions are not the norm. I feel if a dog and his litter carries and produces consistent traits and I pair it with another that does the same then I can breed forward with dogs that compliment eachother. Even if I chose to cross this is what makes a good stud or brood bitch for me. Some individuals may pull more from certain parts of there ped or even have that little something a sibling lacks. If they can produce it is what counts and how consistent. I don't want 2 out of 10 and the rest undesireables or plugs and all out of uniform. I look at what a stud or bitches litter was like too and were they consistent. If I have 2 bitches, litter mates. They lack real good punch and bone. Both pretty intense and smart with good speed, natural air, strength, hard scratching, and gameness. But, one is all out and doesn't have the tools to do what she wants to do early. She takes a lot for it but settles well and counters movements well once she settles farther into things. She also has a little better body composition. The other just let's it come to her more and has the tools to hurt her opposition with great natural wind. To see them both the latter looks more rounded, but when put together they were tit for tat. This would show me even more so that the other was smart. She just felt she could and would try to go gusto.

Say I bred the sister that was more all out and settled well to a game durable male with finish and a sweet spot. He is bred off older dogs in her pedigree but up close still in the 2nd and 3rd generation threw different individuals. The older dogs had a more durable and rugged build to them. This is a back cross to pull forward the qualities in the gene pool I'd need without losing what I have. To me the bitch had every thing her sister did but just thought she could do more than her god given assets would allow nor was her instinct complete. But, she was smart enough to realize it at some point each time and solid enough to turn the tables while having the instinct to do so. I would not breed away from that. I would harness it and remember she was still in line with her litter and my program. Now fast forward say her offspring with said male so far are just what I bred for. More durable and know that sweet spot like there dad if they want to push early like there mom while being more rounded like what is consistent. I can't say I got more punch as they are young and developing. But since she wanted to finish but didnt have the tools the male from the family with a good sweet spot and durable was fitting to compliment her. For her sister, the more poised of the 2 and so to the point she seemed to not care how long it would take. Remember she has decent punch though and can hurt her opposition. Say I go with a male bred from the same family threw different individuals with slight outs but still in line with what exists. This male also hits the same sweet spot as the other male and sticks in holds and like the female stays out of trouble with good punch. He has very good bone and structure also. Her speed should also compliment him well. Not to mention being that his side of the family is known for being harder punching which you don't get a lot of school time out of. If checking my own good I'd know the level of gameness from the bitches side and determined dogs can compliment him and ultimately the program in the long run as well. He also comes from a litter that is consistent. Because they are so similar in lineage with this consistency and good %'s. I'd believe using the same formula to produce them that the traits will stick for better rounded dogs and hope in the future to bring the sisters pups together and back to the aunts. If I started with the bitches mom where I have complimented and corrected shortcomings improving my dogs 1st to 2nd gen. Also say there mom did have way more punch and so did there sire. I expect this 3rd gen may recoup that from them too as some traits skip generations. This in essence would keep me a couple breedings ahead at least in structuring my family and looking for the individuals. Oh and say I do have an out planned to a solid family bred male that is proven. This is what I will hope to keep at a 1/4th to 1/8th out or so to maintain the vigor in my family once I bring the breedings together. He himself is one of 3 out of 4 winning siblings and has all the traits I like and has proven his gameness. I also have a heavier bred male that is a nephew to the older male I back crossed to that is off his half brother and sister from a more intense line breeding. I'd also be watching for deficiencies. I would not knowingly put a deficiency in my program. If it is there and I have dealt with it then I will deal with it and narrow it chances of popping out when I can. This is my breeding theory to grow with in a nutshell.

[STA8541]

Wow. Thanks for sharing all that, EGK.

[EGK]

You welcome, I was bored lol and Im sure went over board. Smh

[Officially Retired]

or.... How about breed together two game lines that aren't known for mouth but are both game as can be, maybe the other game line is known for tough skin and really good air, traits that a high ability fast pace intelligent dog can use... and watch the mouth appear from nowhere!

Sure, as you say, sometimes that type of thing comes from the very "hybrid vigor" itself.

Bottom line is, no one pure bloodline "has everything" ... although the best purebred lines are WELL ROUNDED.

I would say my dogs are extremely well-rounded animals: they're game, tough, smart, can move, can breathe, etc. ... and some can bite hard enough to end things in under an hour ... but they aren't "freak mouthed" dogs.

Almost everyone "mixes something" together in the attempt to get "the whole package."

The entire RBJ bloodline is the effort to mix Redboy and Jocko lines (gameness + finish/mouth) together to get a rounded animal. Jeep/Redboy, same thing.

The Boyles bloodline, same thing again (Bolio/Eli).

If anyone pays attention to Garner's dogs, they're essentially Bolio/Eli (Eli/Carver) also, with the idea of combining power + gameness/moves.

Ultimately, all these original "crosses" begin to become "purebred lines" of their own ... and, if what they produce is GOOD, they too will be well-rounded animals ... but, eventually, they'll also "lack something" that maybe some other bloodline "has" ...

The idea that this other bloodline that "has that" missing "something" they lack ... is automatically "superior" (as if on every level) ... is absolutely absurd.

There IS NO "purebred bloodline" that is comprised of ace-level dogs with no weaknesses.

EACH purebred bloodline becomes known for certain key strengths, and certain key limitations. That's just the way things work.

The best purebred bloodlines are simply well-rounded, capable athletes ... but that doesn't mean every trait they have is off the charts ... it just means they have no glaring weaknesses, can be depended on to go into the trenches, and so are tough to beat.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

No problem, this place is not Rated G, lol, so thanks for the clarification.

I hear you on Chico, and he is a POS who will down good dogs that embarrass his ass, so I can definitely relate.

Welcome aboard,

Jack