INDIAN SONNY'S BOLIO DOGS -- BETTER THAN PATRICK'S?

[MOSES]

No, but what difference does that make?

I just explained that MOK did.

MOK is not an exaggerator, and has bred/shown enough winners (and been around enough top shelf dogs LIKE Amboss and the others I just finished describing) to have his opinion matter to me.

And he was not the only one saying these things either.

Jack

PS: And let me also add that, aside from BBC, MOK is personal friends with Al White, Junior Bush (Crenshaw's mentor), and his uncle was Drew Favre (as in Favre's Luke), just to name a few, so he is not just some guy online with 'a cool internet avatar' (like some people). MOK is a second generation dogman with some pretty solid contacts.

Jack,

I know them all, as well as the back story. Not taking anything from MOK at all, one of my best dogs came off his yard. I know all the people that you are talking about as well as the dogs. I asked did you see the dog or dogs, your response was no.

MOK and BBC work and shows the dogs, and don’t make excuses for any of them. They aren’t “breeders” because they want to sell dogs. Point is MOK and BBC went their separate ways, and everybody landed on their feet. Plenty of things were said by both, and I’ll leave it at that. I have enough respect for them as men to leave their business between them.

PS: That just some internet guy with the "cool internet avatar", has more loses than some people have in dogs that they have matched period! He has been around long enough to know what is up from down. Don’t get it crossed up, just because I am not screaming from the mountain top doesn’t mean we don’t make noise. We just took a little break, kind of like you not selling dogs anymore.

I am not hard to find at all, like you said MOK has the contacts, feel free to make that call. I am not about all the talking! That avatar doesn’t belong to some kid that just got off the bus.

Now, how do you REALY want to carry it? Come get to know me, I promise I am kool. Win or loose I still have my day job, but we'll iron a few things out.

[Officially Retired]

How a dog is papered has never really carried a lot of weight with me, or the guy that turned me onto the dogs. Fake papers are easily 'corrected' with high standards and consistent selection, i.e., Hammer and Rueben.
EWO

There is a difference between how a dog is "papered" vs. how a dog is bred.

How a dog is actually bred is quite relevant IMO ... which can explain a lot, including the mouth of your stud

Agreed. Since we know how things turned out on one side of the equation I will ponder a guess on the other. I would say over time there would have been more winning match dogs from Sonny breeding Bolio. I agree there would be some inbreeding but I would ponder he would breed Bolio that same way he bred the other "Bolio" dogs. The Carver/Corvino/Clause and Eli dogs would be under Bolio and then those dogs back to the Sonny 'Bolio' dogs. I imagine there would have been a lot of winners from those breedings.

That is exactly what I imagine.

In time the argument would then be which family was carrying the other, but that would be an entirely different topic.

Well, that is my whole point, really.

The Bolio dogs are pretty much "carrying" the Clouse dogs IMO. They also pretty much carry the Maloney dogs. Do you see a lot of multi-winning "pure" Clouse or Maloney dogs out there? These dogs pretty much need the Bolio dogs to be known. You don't see anyone using pure dogs of these lines, anywhere, and those few individuals who do have them, don't use them. Yes, Tater was a great dog in beating Rastus, but he died his next fight. Patrick's Tuffy won 2. But that was a long, long, long, time ago. Same with Maloney dogs. How many pure Rodger Crabb dogs are out there winning 3-9x, like pure Eli dogs and pure Carver dogs do?

But you do still see the occasional heavy Bolio dogs, like Andy Capp and Amboss, still winning over the best in the game, if the deck is shuffled just right. Which again is my whole point. If Bolio had been consistently crossed with truly badass stock, you would be seeing multi-winners from the line a whole lot more.

The very fact that you can MAKE the argument, who was carrying whom?, in an Eli/Bolio merging underscores the power of my point here

The very fact both pure Eli dogs, and pure Carver dogs, are repeatedly and consistently able to make Champions and Grand Champions, on their own, IS my point

Because you would be merging an amazing athlete in Bolio, with amazing power in the Eli dogs, with a 1/4 shot of amazing gameness/durability of the Corvino dogs ... rather than merging an amazing athlete with ordinary game dogs, with structural problems inherent in the line, as in the Clouse dogs ... with more game dogs in the Tombstone line. In other words, there is nothing really extraordinary about either the Maloney dogs or the Clouse dogs on their own ... they actually brought Bolio down IMO. (Or, he raised their ability, however you want to look at it.)

The entire thrust of my thread is the fact that Bolio would be merging the athleticism he brought with the brute power of the Eli dogs (who can win and become Gr Ch on their own, pure), and I think replicated over time, you would come out with much, much more capable animals, and much more frequently.

That is my belief at any rate.

[EWO]

I'm thinking from Indian Sonny the line would be a lot more of 50% Bolio dogs winning a bunch of matches. Over time I think there would be less "pure Bolio" dogs (and I will take the Patrick's versions as accurate for this series of posts).

Not being an expert on Sonny but from the outside looking it his breedings looked like he was trying to get to the box with each breeding. The Patrick versions looked like it was dogs being bred to make dogs to make dogs....or even dogs bred to make dogs to be sold in order to make dogs for the box by others. If that made sense.

Still fence riding. If Sonny has Bolio more winning dogs would have come from Bolio and more wins from grandkids. Pat put them in more hands. Bolio-Redboy, Jeep-Bolio, Snooty-Bolio, Buck dogs in many versions, the list goes on. I think the family would have been better off with Sonny in possession but the game end up better thru accessibility.
EWO

[apeman]

I agree that Indian Sonny was doing the better/more interesting breedings with Bolio. However, I do not think they would have made any more of an impact then Sonny's dogs did in our actual historic timeline. I think they would be a private pocket of bad ass dogs that got out to other groups here and there.

On the flip side, what direction would Patrick have gone in if he never acquired Bolio? When I ponder this question I take into consideration the opinion of The Old Trucker, who was a partner of Pat in the early 70's. It was The Old Trucker's opinion that though Bolio probably would have Most likely KIB Tombstone the best decision Pat made was to breed to Tombstone and to acquire other dogs from Maloney. He believed the Maloney dogs added durability and gameness that carried those dogs over into the next couple decades.

With that said, I believe Pat would have bred the balls off of Keno, Tombstone, and Chico man. As well as added more dogs into his program such as Ruben, Luther, and Satch. I think the outcome would be dogs similar to Robert T and other dogs we've seen off the Maloney/Carver, Maloney/Eli/Carver blends except there would be a massive amount of those dogs world wide. Furthermore, if you factor in Patrick still adding any bolio and/or Noe Regrets dogs he could get his hands on we'd see some interesting things.

Irregardless Indian Sonny would have a bad ass pocket of dogs we'd salivate at owning. Nonetheless, Patrick would mass produce a game yet thicker bone line of dogs that would win game world wide for some and made even better by a few other breeders.

[Officially Retired]

I agree that Indian Sonny was doing the better/more interesting breedings with Bolio. However, I do not think they would have made any more of an impact then Sonny's dogs did in our actual historic timeline. I think they would be a private pocket of bad ass dogs that got out to other groups here and there.

Well said, agree.

On the flip side, what direction would Patrick have gone in if he never acquired Bolio? When I ponder this question I take into consideration the opinion of The Old Trucker, who was a partner of Pat in the early 70's. It was The Old Trucker's opinion that though Bolio probably would have Most likely KIB Tombstone the best decision Pat made was to breed to Tombstone and to acquire other dogs from Maloney. He believed the Maloney dogs added durability and gameness that carried those dogs over into the next couple decades.

I agree with this, and it's an interesting twist to take the dialogue. Again, I have nothing but respect for the Maloney dogs, etc., but to me they are just AVERAGE (but tough, game) dogs. I do not see any world beaters coming from the Maloney dogs, just high-percentages of dependable, super-game dogs that (ironically) can sometimes outlast and beat a world beater, though they themselves will never become one, so there's the rub

With that said, I believe Pat would have bred the balls off of Keno, Tombstone, and Chico man. As well as added more dogs into his program such as Ruben, Luther, and Satch. I think the outcome would be dogs similar to Robert T and other dogs we've seen off the Maloney/Carver, Maloney/Eli/Carver blends except there would be a massive amount of those dogs world wide. Furthermore, if you factor in Patrick still adding any bolio and/or Noe Regrets dogs he could get his hands on we'd see some interesting things.

I think Patrick clearly had good taste in dogs, as he also owned the Tater dog ... who, he says, was stolen by Indian Sonny and given back to Bert Clouse ... who matched the dog old and let him die. So, without Tater, Pat only legitimately had Tombstone as a stud, and illicitly Reuben (breeding him without telling anyone). Patrick got his fame as a breeder via Bolio (a stolen dog he hung papers on), so historically Pat Patrick is pretty much pond scum compared to his historical peers. Not that every breeder was a saint, I realize this, but I think Pat has to be looked at a little less admirably than men who bred their own great dogs and built a line on them (or who obtained their dogs legitimately).

Getting back to the subject of dogs, and top-shelf blood, I do agree Patrick could have succeeded with Tombstone and Maloney dogs, but not nearly as well. I think the Tombtone dogs were solid, but not as fast or high-ability as Bolio dogs. I do not see anyone dominating anything with pure Maloney dogs. I do not see 6x, 7x, 8xW Maloney dogs as I do Eli/Carver and Eli/Boilio dogs. Together, Bolio and Tombstone dogs created a legacy, but I just think (in hindsight) an even bigger legacy would have been created with the Eli/Carver/Bolio combination (that Sonny had access to) as opposed to the Bolio/Clouse/Tombstone combo Pat used.

Ronald Boyles kind of did this with his dogs, but I honestly never liked the Hank blood (everyone who owned him, sold him), and I just think Sonny's Eli/Bolio dogs were a lot cleaner-bred than Boyles'. Sonny was also well-connected to the best Eli resources on earth, back before there were the tag-alongs, which I feel is important also.

Irregardless Indian Sonny would have a bad ass pocket of dogs we'd salivate at owning. Nonetheless, Patrick would mass produce a game yet thicker bone line of dogs that would win game world wide for some and made even better by a few other breeders.

That is a pretty good assessment, I agree.

Jack

[MISTER]

My question has always been if Sonny knew who took/had his dog then why didn't he go retrieve him? A dog of that caliber, performance and production wasn't retrieved by his rightful owner just boggles my mind. And how was Patrick still so highly praised when the entire world knew his entire yard/existence was built off pure fuckery

[Officially Retired]

My question has always been if Sonny knew who took/had his dog then why didn't he go retrieve him? A dog of that caliber, performance and production wasn't retrieved by his rightful owner just boggles my mind. And how was Patrick still so highly praised when the entire world knew his entire yard/existence was built off pure fuckery

According to Patrick, he stole Bolio from Indian Sonny because Sonny stole Tater from Patrick first, and shipped him back to Bert Clouse (who matched the dog again and lost him). So maybe Sonny knew he "deserved" the retaliation.

Another reason could also be because Pat's yard was a fortress. If you've ever been there, Pat's property was surrounded by chain/barbwire, with 120 bulldogs chained inside, with 4 to 5 150-lb Fila Brasileiros wandering loose, ensuring no one could "sneak in" without the entire yard resounding with dog barks ... followed by attacks from multiple loose enormous guard dogs ... with Patrick living in his trailer with a high-powered rifle propped-up at each window. Not the kind of setting to provide "an advantage" to any intruder. (Remember, when Patrick finally got raided, they had to drive over his fence with Swat Team vehicles to gain access.)

But, yeah, on the rest

[Officially Retired]

Also, really look at the pedigree of Patrick's Tater.

His topside is bred a lot like Eli/Carver dogs (who tend to be heavy Dibo and Williams mixes).

Allen's Redman (Tater's sire) is Tater's father ... who was sited by Ritcheson's Jerry, Dibo's brother. He was bred to a heavy Williams bitch in Ritcheson's Kitty, like Black Widow, which is 1/4 Tudor's Jeff, a devastating son of Dibo.

So, again, that is where the power of Tater was coming from, IMO. His topside was very similar to the Eli/BlackWidow blood he was facing.

Eli was inbred Blind Billy (100% Dibo/AZ Pete/Bambi), while Black Widow was 1/4 Dibo, 3/4 Williams blood. That exact same pure-Dibo over Williams-1/4-Dibo combination is behind the Eli/Carver BEST crosses. This combo has been a mainstay in the very best, multi-winningest dogs in the the sport.

Look at the pedigrees and see if you agree that is also where Tater's power came from ... the same basic combo on his topside: Dibo/AZ Pete's brother (Ritcheson's Jerry) was bred to a 3/4 Williams, 1/4 Dibo bitch (in Ritcheson's Kitty) ... to produce Tater's sire, Allen's Redman.

The Clouse blood on the bottom of tater, Clouse's Red Brandy, was an exceptionally-clean "Clouse fantasy" breeding too. There is no denying this: 68.75% Ch Staber/25% Ch Big Boy/12.5% Ch Butcher Boy ... but, in the end, Patrick's Tater only had 1 win in him.

I just think the ONLY version of these dogs, still winning and still producing MULTI-winners, today, is the Eli/Carver combination

Eli dogs (linebred on Dibo) and the Ironhead/Black Widow Carver combiniations. (Interesting that Ironhead, Carver's expressly-stated favorite dog, is a 50% Dibo/Az Pete, 35% Black Widow combo, with an extra 12.5% shot of Gr Ch Rascal, Dibo's half-brother) ... essentially 62.5% the same blood as Eli, 35% Black Widow.

These dogs are where the true super-stars are coming from ...

That is the way I see things, at any rate.

[EWO]

There is a difference between how a dog is "papered" vs. how a dog is bred.

How a dog is actually bred is quite relevant IMO ... which can explain a lot, including the mouth of your stud

A couple of points. He was not my dog but that of a friend. But I did try to land something off of him every chance I had.

I agree knowing how a dog is bred is a lot different. Looking back if you knew what you know now would your breeding plans or selection process been any different? Hindsight being 20/20 I would say you would have made some different decisions for no more reason than you would have more information at your disposal. But at the same time I am thinking breeding your dogs 'kinda sorta turned out' with Hammer as the source.

So I definitely agree there is a difference and either can be corrected with selection and due diligence. One just will take a little longer than the other.

Good series of posts. Great topic. Lots of insight. EWO

[FrostyPaws]

I never saw 45 go though he wasn't far from me. I know where he was, and I know that most of the people in that area weren't what I'd call top shelf competition. That being said, it doesn't take away from what 45 did. It just would've been nice for him to do into some dogs people thought more of I guess.

I saw Amboss go, and he was an outstanding dog. I did try to hook my Bullet dog into him before he became champion, but we had just beaten BBC not long before then. I don't know if that factored into it or not personally, but I always find those kind of scenarios interesting when they do happen.

I also knew MOK. I've known Jr Bush for over 20 years, along with some of his closest friends from showing dogs back in the 60s. Jr always had one of two things. He either had a top quality dog or he had one of the lowest quality dogs you could think to see, but it never bothered Jr. He just loved doing what he did.

That being said, I also believe that Indian Sonny would've probably made a better quality dog over the years of breeding. But like all who agreed, there would be so many top quality dogs that would've never existed. Even with Pat selling dogs, it's hard to argue with the success he had by breeding those dogs. I've never bought a dog from Pat, and while I've pondered it a time or two, I never really come close to doing so, but I would buy a dog from Indian Sonny if given the chance knowing what I know about his dogs and how he liked his dogs.

Given the right type of Eli dog, it can add a lot to your program if you're able to keep it going as needed. Being as the dogs I've bred, at this point, are based around the Eli/Redboy/Honeybunch scenario, it's hard to argue with the way those dogs are headed now with the proper molding and breeding decisions. I would be hard pressed to take any Maloney bred dogs over Jasper for any reason.