Western Rules

[STONEWALL]

I agree jack that if injuries are to the degree that it takes more than 10 seconds, that 99% of the time the towel should be thrown in. The point I'm trying to make is how many dogmen will call that game dog a cur if he is counted out while scratching. When he didn't take the count. And I believe the game dog has earned the right not to be counted out. To me taking the count is when a dog hesitates. Maybe the rules should be modified to state that if the dog hesitates then he gets a 10 count. No hesitation no count.

[STORMY]

I agree jack that if injuries are to the degree that it takes more than 10 seconds, that 99% of the time the towel should be thrown in. The point I'm trying to make is how many dogmen will call that game dog a cur if he is counted out while scratching. When he didn't take the count. And I believe the game dog has earned the right not to be counted out. To me taking the count is when a dog hesitates. Maybe the rules should be modified to state that if the dog hesitates then he gets a 10 count. No hesitation no count.

i agree with you if he's in motion w/o no hesitations.

[Officially Retired]

I agree jack that if injuries are to the degree that it takes more than 10 seconds, that 99% of the time the towel should be thrown in. The point I'm trying to make is how many dogmen will call that game dog a cur if he is counted out while scratching. When he didn't take the count. And I believe the game dog has earned the right not to be counted out. To me taking the count is when a dog hesitates. Maybe the rules should be modified to state that if the dog hesitates then he gets a 10 count. No hesitation no count.

I would have to respectfully disagree. It should be exactly the opposite: ONLY the game dog has the right to a count. The dog that hesitates loses right there. Only if the dog is really trying to get there, does he then have 10 seconds to do so ... and if he can't, then he loses because in this case he's clearly too injured to continue.

First of all, any knowledgeable dogman is going to know the difference between a dog counted out trying to scratch (but so injured he can't get there), and a dog standing there "taking" a count. (If people don't know the difference, then there is no cure for this kind of cluelessness.) If anything, I believe what should be eliminated in our sport is the MISREADING of the original rules. In the original rules, there is no "count" over a hesitating dog; if a dog takes a 1-count, it loses right there. Ideally, the dog either wants to continue immediately, or it does not.

As I said in the last example, if you think about it in boxing terms, this is easy to understand. If a man gets knocked on his ass, the ref is going to start counting to 10, and the man has 10 seconds to get up. Now, he may be wobbly, stumbling and falling, but if he is trying to get up, then the ref will proceed to continue to verbalize the full 10-count ... but if the boxer just sits there and "takes" the count, shaking his head "no," the ref is going to stop counting and waive the fight over right there. No ref is going to keep counting over a fighter just sitting there consciously refusing to continue.

Jack

[prairiedog]

These are the Cajun rules posted to Yuarena by its Admin. I believe the actual practice is slightly different than written below, though I can't tell you exactly how.

REVISED PIT RULE (Revised Cajun Rules) (Revised DEC 2002)

1. The dimensions of the pit must not be less than 14 x 14 ft., with a height of 2-3 ft. A reasonable scratch-line can be imaginary. Flooring should be carpeted or cushioned. Railings (optional) can be added around, at least 2 feet from the walls. There should be a balanced and adequate lighting.

2. The two parties must agree on a referee/judge before weigh-in and washing. The judge shall oversee the implementation of the rules and all of the mutually agreed terms and conditions. Judge's decisions are FINAL.

3. The winner of the toss-coin will choose his corner and decide whose dog will be washed first; this is all done in the presence of the selected judge of the match.

4. Both parties shall agree on a designated timekeeper, chosen by the referee or the Club. The timekeeper will be the one to record the start of the match, the time a turn called or an out-of-holds count was made. The timekeeper will also be responsible for the thirty second (25-5) Corner-Count and the ten second TO-COMPLETE Scratch. The timekeeper will be the one (if needed/asked) to remind the judge whose dog it is to scratch. The timekeeper's count will be the one officially recognized by the judge, if he did not do the counting himself.

5. Both parties must deposit an agreed forfeit amount to a stake/forfeit holder or to the club to make the match binding and must hand-over the stake/bet before the match. The club's standards of forfeits are:

A. Php22,000 for Default B

B. Php5, 000-7,000 per half libra or a fraction of it, as penalty for over-weight (5t for big dogs & 7t for small dogs), with option to abort or renegotiate at the pleasure of the party who is on weight.

6. The weigh-in and washing will be supervised by the designated judge and handled by your opponent, fifteen (15) to thirty (30) minutes before the match or depending on what the parties have agreed upon (a convention could set a time frame for weigh-ins of participants for practical convenience). "JOY" detergent can be used. The handler/s should wash their hands up to their elbows. Towels can be allowed to dry the dogs. After the wash, NO object, no person from anywhere or anything not directly related to the actual match, must touch or get into contact with both the washed dog and the handler until the match is decided. Bottled drinks, towels, cigar, etc. must be coursed thru the judge and can be inspected by your opponent's side. Any violation of these rules can be called a FOUL. It is advised that collar and leash are removed during the wash and to be worn only AFTER the match.

7. The handler is allowed up to two (2) persons with him. One to act as his 2nd or corner man and other on the opponent's corner. They can also be the ones assigned to wash the opponent's dog.
8. The dog/s once brought inside the pit has to be faced against their opponent (not facing his corner). The referee will then ask both handlers if they are "READY?" and will give the command to RELEASE your dog by shouting "PIT!".

9. The match, basically, is an "alternating scratch" contest to determine the winner. The first dog to make a "turn" will be the first to scratch, alternating with the other dog until one fails to "complete" his scratch within the count of ten (10) seconds and lose the match.

10. A "turn" is granted by the judge when a dog turns his head and shoulder, at the least, away from an opponent in an obvious attempt to walk/run away from the fight, with or without hold/s. The judge can only grant a "turn" when any or both handlers requested one, even on his own dog. All or any "turns" made AFTER the 1st granted turn has no bearing on the match.

11. Handlers are not allowed to make contact with or handle ANY dogs (including its own) during the match. They have to wait until the judge commands them. e.g. "Handle your dogs" or "HANDLE when FREE-OF-HOLDS", etc. Only then can they handle the dogs. In which case, a handler should handle only his OWN dog.

12. Handlers must pick up their dogs whenever they are "FREE-OF-HOLDS" whether or not being told to do so by the judge, as long as there is already a "TURN" granted or "OUT-OF-HOLDS" called by the judge. Handling is done when neither dog has a hold. In case either dog makes a hold while being picked up, the handler must automatically let go of his dog and wait for another opportunity.

13. A FOUL can be called on a handler who intentionally delays or refuse to pick up his dog. A handler has the right to protect himself or his dog when the other fails to pick up his dog.

14. After a handle on both or either dog is made, the 30-second corner-count starts. Both dogs are then brought to their respective corners facing the wall. The judge will remind the handlers whose turn it is to scratch. At the count of twenty-five (25), the judge will command the handlers to "FACE YOUR DOGS" and at the count of thirty (30), will order the one to scratch to "RELEASE!" his dog. After the release, the handler is NOT ALLOWED to touch his dog or step out of his corner. The dog is given ten (10) seconds TO COMPLETE his scratch by either by TAKING HOLD (bite) or RAMMING the other dog in the corner.

* In the event that a dog scratches, but fails to "take hold" of his opponent after ten (10) seconds because the other dog ran away, the judge will consider this a COMPLETE scratch with no winner yet and a resulting scratch-in-turn will ensue.

15. During scratching, a handler must release his dog with ALL FOUR (4) feet firmly PLANTED on the ground and with the hands supporting only the dog's chest. A handler is not allowed the following during scratching:

a) Pushing, lifting, throwing, kneeing or making any motion to make the dog scratch.

b) Covering the dog by any means to prevent the other dog from seeing it; this includes covering the eyes or turning his dog's head away from the scratching dog. Hands on the dog's chest only.

c) Leaving his corner BEFORE his dog makes contact with the opposing dog.


16. It is up to the "receiving" handler, AFTER the command to release, to decide when to let go of his dog, so long as he make sure to release his dog upon contact.

17. During the match, banging on the pit walls, stomping on the floor or making too much unnecessary noise or anything that causes distraction to both dogs and handlers are not allowed. Only voice command, slapping the floor, snapping the fingers or clapping are allowed to cheer the dog. Excessive catcalling, heckling or making derogatory remarks against both dogs and handlers are not permitted. It is the sole responsibility of the handler to tell his side of followers to cooperate with the rules or be slapped a FOUL. Cameras with flash are not allowed to take photos during the match. Any video or photo taking must have permissions from the handlers and judge or from the club.

18. Any dog that quits by jumping the pit is automatically declared the loser, and no scratching is necessary. Likewise, any person found guilty of using "rubs" and the likes, will automatically lose the match at any stage (with lifetime sanction by the club).

19. In case of a dog being "FANGED" the referee will order the handlers to HOLD their dogs while he defangs the dog using whatever means applicable (usually a pencil or ballpoint pen). If this is not possible, he will BREAK UP the dogs using a "break stick" and after defanging, will order to face the dogs two (2) feet apart and released simultaneously. This is not considered a turn or out-of-holds.

20. An "Out-of-Holds" is called when a "turn" is NOT YET called and both dogs were counted-out not in holds for thirty (30) seconds. A dog snapping or a fang snagging a skin but not in hold is not considered a hold. In an event of an out-of-hold count, the referee will ask both handlers if they want the match to be declared a DRAW, if they don't agree, the "DOWN DOG" WILL SCRATCH FIRST (SCRATCH-TO-CONTINUE). If he fails, the other dog must complete his scratch to win (SCRATCH-TO-WIN). In an event that both dogs cannot complete their scratch, the match is declared a DRAW. If the "down dog" makes his scratch the first time, then the match continue with ALTERNATE SCRATCHING, until one fails to complete a scratch and is declared the loser.

* In the event that there is an out-of-hold count in progress, in which case THERE IS a down dog, that dog will automatically be the one to scratch after thirty (30) seconds, regardless if the dogs changed position at the completion of the count.

* In the event that BOTH dogs are DOWN or STANDING from the start of the OUT-OF-HOLDS count, the judge will decide who is the "more AGGRESSIVE or ahead in points" and will consider that dog to be the "TOP DOG"

* If the down dog did not complete his scratch, the referee will then order the handlers to handle their dogs and then count another 30 seconds before releasing the other dog for a scratch-to-win.

21. The club will ACCEPT sponging or any other addition and/or variation/s to these rules as long as BOTH parties agreed to it mutually. Anything that can not be or was not agreed upon can be decided on a toss coin BEFORE the said match.

22. Anyone caught violating any of these rules is automatically FOULED-OUT or DISQUALIFIED. However, it's up to the judge's discretion to give a WARNING or two to the offending party if he thinks it is just an infraction or unintentional. E.g. the referee has the right to INVALIDATE a scratch, break up the dogs or make the dog repeat the scratch. As long as the offense will not affect the outcome of the match.

23. A match or a result will not be recognized unless judged by a dog man accredited by the club.

24. A party may substitute any dog and NOT PAY forfeit as long as he is on an OPEN WEIGHT basis with his/her opponent. In a Semi-Open basis, a "change/substitute of dog" from a specified one will cost you a penalty of Php11, 000 (or you can set a higher/lower mutually agreed penalty), but the match MUST PUSH -THRU. All PURE Strictly-Specific matches (can not change dog) basis will now be considered as OTC only.

25. In an event that the match cannot continue due to some unforeseen circumstances, the match is declared a "NO CONTEST" and the Club will determine another date and place for it, as agreed upon by both parties.

26. Anyone notoriously and consistently violating any of these rules, especially those unscrupulous ones who fail to pay forfeits or made attempt to RUB, will be BANNED from competing and attending future activities of the Club.

IGNORANCE OF THE RULE IS NOT AN EXCUSE! IT'S YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO KNOW THE RULES

[Officially Retired]

Here are my comments on these rules:

1. Flooring should NOT be "cushioned," but carpet only. The scratch line should NEVER be "imaginary," as how in the world could can a referee determine if a dog's feet are placed behind an "imaginary" line? This is preposterous and invites dispute.

2. Again, the judge should be agreed on prior to the contract IMO.

3. Fine.

4. Fine.

5. Fine.

6. Fine.

7. Interesting variation to have "two" seconds (thirds? ).

8. Fine.

9. Fine.

10. I have always thought this was bullshit, the idea that a ref can only call a turn "if asked" by one of the principles.
He is the ref, for Chrissakes, and if he sees a turn (or a foul) it is his job to call it. I can't think of any other sport IN THE UNIVERSE where refs have to "wait for someone's permission" to make a judgment call. This is preposterous.

11. Fine.

12. Fine.

13. I agree with this. When I handled Truman, the other handler (Stubbs) sat there watching it like it was TV. His dog (Ollie) came after me and jumped for my dog, and I kneed Ollie out of the way. Some people thought what I did was a foul, but this was bullshit. I made a fast handle, I had my dog, and the other handler wasn't doing his job and getting his dog. When his dog ran and jumped for me and mine, I do NOT have to allow his dog to bite mine, while mine is being held. I have the right to protect myself and my dog, and that is what I did by kneeing Ollie to prevent the contact. That happened several times, in fact, and I think the other owner deserved to be fouled-out for not making handles when they were right there to be made. Good rule.

14. Fine.

(* In the event that a dog scratches, but fails to "take hold" of his opponent after ten (10) seconds because the other dog ran away, the judge will consider this a COMPLETE scratch with no winner yet and a resulting scratch-in-turn will ensue.)
Huh? I don't get this at all. If the other dog fails to take hold, he should lose on a quit. If the dog he scratched to "runs away" then that dog should lose for being a rank cur. Either action is a POS move.

15. Fine.

16. Fine.

17. Fine.

18. Fine.

19. Again, I do not agree with separating the dogs to deal with a fang. It is my opinion that any "defanging" should really only take place in the corner, after a legit handle, or not at all. If one dog gets fanged, that is just too damned bad for that dog, and is part of the natural flow of the contest, which IMO should never be tampered with at all. Any artificial effort to stop the flow of the contest changes the natural momentum.

20. Out Of Holds Counts should be 10 seconds, not 30 seconds, IMO.

21. The issue of sponges should be agreed upon prior to the contract being made, not prior to the match.

22. Fine.

23. Fine

24. Good rule. I have always thought this whole idea of "a substitute dog" is bullshit, in all but the lowest-level of dog matching. For example, if I have a first-time out dog, I don't give a damn what you bring, we're just having a first-time deal. However, IMO, if we are doing a Name Contract, you better bring that Name Dog or you need to pay me a forfeit. For example, if I have a highly-regarded Champion, and from my list of available options I have selected your highly-regarded Champion as an opponent (to further my dog's record), and if I have then wasted 6-8 weeks of my life (time and money) conditioning my Champion to meet your Champion, specifically, I damned sure don't want to go into some "substitute dog," I want your GD Champion!! And so if you don't produce that Champion when it comes time to rock & roll, then I should get some sort of compensation for wasting my time like that. I should NOT have to be forced to get holes in my famous Champion against some no-account "substitute" dog.

25. Fine.

26. Fine.

And I agree, ignorance of the rules is no excuse: it is every man's job to know them!


Cheers,

Jack

[FrostyPaws]

Prairie, what you posted is not the Original Cajun Rules. It also clearly states in the title that it's a revised edition that Yuarena did themselves.

[prairiedog]

Prairie, what you posted is not the Original Cajun Rules. It also clearly states in the title that it's a revised edition that Yuarena did themselves.

I know, I just thought it would help further the discussion on alternatives to the Original Cajun Rules.

[Black Hand]

the dog should be counted out at 10. it is up to the owner to make judgement on the dogs effort afterwards. but the outcome of the contest should not be altered because he was trying Or because "he might be wrongfully labeled a cur" lol. that's just ridiculous. it should end if he stops mid-scratch because he is telling you he might not want to be doing this any longer. good dog or bad dog, it's now your responsibility to stop.

[Black Hand]

shit I just realized how old these posts were. lol. clicked the link from the other thread and read it all.

[TFX]

I bet even with the internet; or perhaps because of it, if I extended the challenge to post the original Cajun Rules we'd end up with a number of different sets of rules. The Cajun Rules started back in the 20's, and by the time the era of the big conventions came about in the 50's and 60's, they were already modified quite a bit. Let's put it into clearer perspective, the Cajun Rules as they were originally written are over 90 years old. Because of that, most people don't have the ability to even access the original version of the Cajun Rules.