Question on buying dogs.

[Bullman]

Ok, I get what you are saying about the dogs and I agree but I never said that I only like a dog that can only barnstorm. I like a dog that can finish quick but can stay there if need be. Like Bulldoghistorian said it is a common misconception. For instance there was a dog once who breezed through schooling wrecking everything. First show did the same, second show met a dog who was close to his equal but the damage done at the start caught up with him in the end but that hunt was back and forth for 40 min. Even for a head dog you would have to have a fairly special one to avoid getting touched for an entire show. They don't come around too often. I like both types but if I choose the dog that has the best chance to finish early. That is just my preference.

Now on the boxing you could not be more wrong! If you think Leonard made Hagler look silly that is just plain wrong. I suggest you watch the fight again. Leonard basically tried to steal rounds in the last 30 seconds. Now he did win a number 3 or 4 of the first 6 rounds of that fight until Hagler decided to stop trying to box Leonard and begin to hunt him down. I thought Hagler won that fight but it could have went either way. Please watch that fight again and you will see what I mean. To say Leonard slapped Hagler silly is complete nonsense.

So if we are going to talk about making accurate statements and thinking correctly and factoring in weight etc how about the demands Leonard had for that Hagler fight. 12 rounds instead of 15, 10oz gloves instead of 8 and he wanted no smaller than a 20 ft ring.

Leonard was dying a death in that fight from the 5th round on. Hagler pummeled his body, hurt him several occasions. I am pretty sure if that was a 15 round fight Leonard would not have made it. Leonard was the pretty boy and he stole the rounds in the last 30 seconds!

You know that Goody Petronelli complained about an british judge that was supposed to judge that fight because he thought he would favor Leonard's boxing over Hagler's pressure. They had him replaced by a Mexican judge who scored the fight a ridiculous 118-110 for Leonard. The English judge scored it at home 115-113 for Hagler. Now had they not complained about that judge then Hagler would have been the winner.

Don't forget Leonard later went up in weight again to super middleweight and light heavy to win more titles. It is not that Hagler was huge and way too big for Leonard. A lot of fighters move up in weight as they get older to say that their proper weight is the weight they started at is not accurate either. You said Chavez moved up to face Whitaker, yes he did but not 13lbs. He was the champ at light welter and Whitaker the champ at welter so he moved up 7lb. Chavez was the bigger fighter and Whitaker also started out his career at super featherweight also.

Boxing is full of fighters that have moved up from their supposed best weight and doing better than ever. Pacman moved up 8 divisions and still doing it better than ever. Mayweather 5 divisions, Cotto 4 divisions, JMM 5 divisions, the list goes on and that is just current fighters. A fighters lowest weight is not always his best weight as evidenced by these fighters.

As I said to each their own, I think Hagler was a better fighter than Chavez you think otherwise that is fine by me.

I have said my piece on this, I have not typed this much in years, we can debate boxing until the cows come home but I think people have different views on it and when favorite fighters are involved no one is going to cave so on that note I am out

[Officially Retired]

Ok, I get what you are saying about the dogs and I agree but I never said that I only like a dog that can only barnstorm. I like a dog that can finish quick but can stay there if need be. Like Bulldoghistorian said it is a common misconception. For instance there was a dog once who breezed through schooling wrecking everything. First show did the same, second show met a dog who was close to his equal but the damage done at the start caught up with him in the end but that hunt was back and forth for 40 min. Even for a head dog you would have to have a fairly special one to avoid getting touched for an entire show. They don't come around too often. I like both types but if I choose the dog that has the best chance to finish early. That is just my preference.

Okay, we agree (for the most part) on the dogs.

Now on the boxing you could not be more wrong! If you think Leonard made Hagler look silly that is just plain wrong. I suggest you watch the fight again. Leonard basically tried to steal rounds in the last 30 seconds. Now he did win a number 3 or 4 of the first 6 rounds of that fight until Hagler decided to stop trying to box Leonard and begin to hunt him down. I thought Hagler won that fight but it could have went either way. Please watch that fight again and you will see what I mean. To say Leonard slapped Hagler silly is complete nonsense.

What I said was not plain wrong. You're just in plain denial.

I agree Hagler was the better man. Physically. And by a country mile. I also agree Leonard fought to steal the rounds, as opposed to trying to beat the man, Hagler, in a legitimate fighting effort. You're right again.

But Leonard was the smarter man and beat Hagler, mentally, before the fight even started by getting him to go along with setting the stage for this very thing to happen

I don't need to watch the fight again; I have it on tape and have seen it dozens of times. Everything you said is correct ... except you're still in denial. You even just finished saying, "I thought Hagler won but it could have went either way."

The point you can't seem to accept is Hagler let that happen. There was nothing he could do to KO a 13-lb smaller man. You yourself admit, "It could have gone either way," when Leonard was a little man bulked-up against the NATURALLY-BIGGER Hagler.

The other point you can't seem to accept is that Chavez fought a similar "pick em" fight with Whitaker, where it could have gone either way, but yet Chazez was the smaller man against the bigger Whitaker. You can't seem to get this through your head. You even LIED to get yourself to keep thinking Hagler is as good as Chavez (see below).

So if we are going to talk about making accurate statements and thinking correctly and factoring in weight etc how about the demands Leonard had for that Hagler fight. 12 rounds instead of 15, 10oz gloves instead of 8 and he wanted no smaller than a 20 ft ring.

Again, you are too blind to see the truth of Hagler's mental inferiority in your own statements

You're right: Hagler gave in to all of Leonard's demands. That means he put Leonard's interests over his own interests. That is a loss right there, a mental loss. Hagler basically bent over and said, "Give it to me, Sugar."

That means HAGLER LOST BEFORE THE FIGHT STARTED. He gave in on every level.

I absolutely think Hagler would have won a 15 round fight, in a smaller ring, 8 oz gloves ... and so did Leonard ... and so Leonard got Hagler to cave in on everything. Hagler didn't even know HE was the Champion. Hagler should have said, "Fuck you chicken boy, you want my title, you come to fight me for it, not run from me.", but Hagler just said, "Yessuh, Mr. Leonard, anything you say, sah," which is why he lost the fight before it started.

Leonard was dying a death in that fight from the 5th round on. Hagler pummeled his body, hurt him several occasions. I am pretty sure if that was a 15 round fight Leonard would not have made it. Leonard was the pretty boy and he stole the rounds in the last 30 seconds!

Leonard was dying in the 11th and 12th only. He was doing fine with his ploy during MOST of the fight, however.

But still, in the end, Marvelous Marvin Hagler was out-negotiated, out-smarted, and out-maneuvered by a retired, 13-lb-smaller welterweight ... and there is no way in hell any "smaller man" would have done that to Chavez at junior lightweight. Chavez was UNDEFEATED at his best weight, and he had NEARLY 60 FIGHTS at junior lightweight. Period.

You know that Goody Petronelli complained about an british judge that was supposed to judge that fight because he thought he would favor Leonard's boxing over Hagler's pressure. They had him replaced by a Mexican judge who scored the fight a ridiculous 118-110 for Leonard. The English judge scored it at home 115-113 for Hagler. Now had they not complained about that judge then Hagler would have been the winner.

Blah-blah, has nothing to do with point of this discussion.

Don't forget Leonard later went up in weight again to super middleweight and light heavy to win more titles. It is not that Hagler was huge and way too big for Leonard. A lot of fighters move up in weight as they get older to say that their proper weight is the weight they started at is not accurate either. You said Chavez moved up to face Whitaker, yes he did but not 13lbs. He was the champ at light welter and Whitaker the champ at welter so he moved up 7lb. Chavez was the bigger fighter and Whitaker also started out his career at super featherweight also.

You're reaching and scrambling. I don't care how many weight divisions Chavez (or Whitaker) or Leonard moved up.

I am talking about WHERE THEY SPENT THE MOST TIME, THEIR PRIME WEIGHT CLASSES.

Chavez fought the first 55 fights of his career at 129 lb or less. That is basically DOUBLE the amount of fights Whitaker even had at that point. I mean, you can't even think clearly, if you want to talk about Chavez moving up to 147. That is 17 lb over his best weight!! For a little guy! Hell, Chavez could only come in at 142 it was so far off where he was supposed to be at 129. That is 13 lb over his best weight. Whitaker was at 145 also, 2 lb under the limit, and 3 lb heavier than where Chavez came in. Whitaker began his career at 135. That is also where he was at in the Olympics. What fucking planet do you live on to call Chavez "the bigger man" than Whitaker? I can't even have a discussion with someone this clueless. It's too frustrating, and it is a waste of my time.

Genius. Chavez fought nearly 60 fights at 129!
Do you know how many fights Whitaker had at that weight? ZERO.
Whitaker started his pro career at 135; he even weighed this much (and more) in the Olympics.

Wake TF up and stop making outrageously-false statements just to keep talking.
I can debate facts all day; I can't stand debating outright lies and stupidity.

You can't even put Hagler in the ballpark with Chavez, really. Hagler didn't equal Chavez' record at their respective divisions, and Hagler never came up at all. He NEVER ONCE moved up to risk getting his own ass demolished up at 175, which is proportionally less weight for a bigger man to move up. He wouldn't even go up to 168. And, in the end, Hagler lost his 160-lb title to a natural 147-lber, bulked up.

You are just in left field here ...

Boxing is full of fighters that have moved up from their supposed best weight and doing better than ever. Pacman moved up 8 divisions and still doing it better than ever. Mayweather 5 divisions, Cotto 4 divisions, JMM 5 divisions, the list goes on and that is just current fighters. A fighters lowest weight is not always his best weight as evidenced by these fighters.

Three facts are true:

1) NONE of the fighters you mentioned had SIXTY FIGHTS at one weight ... before they moved up. (Except Hagler, who lost 3, and drew 2, while Chavez lost ZERO at his best weight.)
2) ANYone who fights that many fights "at one weight" has had THEIR PRIME YEARS at that weight.
3) Anyone who cannot see, understand, and acknowledge this is either a retard, or not being reasonable, one or the other.

As I said to each their own, I think Hagler was a better fighter than Chavez you think otherwise that is fine by me.

You have shown, on many levels, that you're not thinking, and this evaluation would just be one more area.

I have said my piece on this, I have not typed this much in years, we can debate boxing until the cows come home but I think people have different views on it and when favorite fighters are involved no one is going to cave so on that note I am out

You mean, said your peace (not piece).

You are entitled to have your favorites, as is anyone else. But, while you did say many true things (about Hagler/Leonard, the pre-fight terms, etc.), you also failed to see the weak mind it proved Hagler to have, by comparison to Leonard (and anyone else with a brain). And the statements you made about Chavez being "the bigger man" than Whitaker, were outright falsehoods.

I will gladly keep debating you on any boxing subject, so long as I don't have to field flat-out lies like "Chavez was the bigger man," when he was 3 lb smaller in the actual fight, and 5 lb smaller at their prime weights.

Jack

[Bullman]

Jack you are wrong on so many things it is not even funny. I am in no mood for drawn out long winded posts as I have a yard to look after.

Ok you said Leonard slapped Hagler silly WRONG.

You said Chavez was in a pick um fight with Whitaker WRONG Chavez barely won 3 rounds.

You said Whitaker never fought at super featherweight WRONG.

Go and add up Chavez opponents records for his first 55 fights see what you come up with.

No need to throw insults Jack I am not here to take your abuse about spelling mistakes and other crap, seems to be a habit of yours when someone does not agree with what you say. Not a very good sign of character in my opinion.

[Officially Retired]

Jack you are wrong on so many things it is not even funny. I am in no mood for drawn out long winded posts as I have a yard to look after.

I am right on everything I said, which is why you have nothing of merit left to say.

If you want to run off and hide, rather than concede YOU were wrong on Chavez, that would be typical of your kind ...

Ok you said Leonard slapped Hagler silly WRONG.

By that I mean, bitch-slapped and pitty-patted, while Hagler couldn't do shit about it.

You said Chavez was in a pick um fight with Whitaker WRONG Chavez barely won 3 rounds.

Um, genius, the fight was a draw.

If you want to again depart reality (you know, the actual cards), and go off of your own, "imaginary card," then we can't have a discussion, because you're talking fantasy not reality.

J
You said Whitaker never fought at super featherweight WRONG.

You show me one professional fight Pernell Whitaker had at super featherweight.
You show me one Olympic fight Pernell Whitaker had at super feather.

Pernell Whitaker won the Olympic Gold medal at LIGHTWEIGHT, genius.

I said not one thing wrong ...

If you are (again) reaching, and talking what weight Whitaker may have fought at "as a teenager" ... then this only goes to prove how DENSE you are ... how LITTLE you can actually stick to what was really being said, and how FAR you are willing to reach to keep avoiding THE TRUTH.

Hell, son, Chavez used to weigh 6 lb ... AS AN INFANT ... but that has not one focking thing to do with what HIS BEST PRIME FIGHTING WEIGHT was

At their PRIME, PROFESSIONAL BOXING WEIGHTS, Chavez was 129 and Whitaker was 135.
When they fought each other, Chavez was 142 and Whitaker was 145.

What focking planet do you live on which prompted you to call Chavez "the bigger man" ...?

Go and add up Chavez opponents records for his first 55 fights see what you come up with.

Why don't you say something intelligent? Chavez was 55-0. Anyone can look up his record.

Why don't YOU show ME what medal Pernell Whitaker won in the Olympics, and why don't YOU tell ME what weight class?

Why don't YOU show ME what professional junior lightweight fight Pernell Whiaker ever had, genius.

Back up your own lies, or admit you were lying (or that you didn't know WTH you were talking about).

No need to throw insults Jack I am not here to take your abuse about spelling mistakes and other crap, seems to be a habit of yours when someone does not agree with what you say. Not a very good sign of character in my opinion.

It is actually a habit of the people who argue with me (1) to be unable to spell correctly in the same sentences they're (2) unable to think correctly.
The defects tend to go hand-in-hand

What is not a very good indication of character is you lying to sustain your argument.

Now YOU tell ME what weight Chavez was Champion at for the majority of his career, and retained for 9 title defenses.
You tell ME what weight Pernell won his Olympic Gold in.
You tell ME what weight Pernell began his professional career in.
You tell ME what weight Pernell was, and what weight Chavez was, when they fought each other.

Then YOU admit to ME *which* you were doing, LYING or BEING CLUELESS, in your statement "Chavez was the bigger man" than Whitaker.

Let's see how stout your character is

I have FACTUALLY destroyed you. Let's see if you can admit this.

The only thing you have done is argue your "imaginary boxing card" as to who won the Chavez/Whitaker fight, in defiance of the actual cards

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Now Regarding Hagler vs. Chavez ... and which one was FACTUALLY the better fighter, pound-for-pound ...

Here are THE FACTS:

Hagler was 62-3-2 (67 fights total / 93% wins / 78% KOs) at his best weight;
Chavez was 55-0-0 (55 fights total / 100% wins / 84% KOs) at his best weight;

Hagler was 62-2-2 when he faced Leonard, at his own best weight, yet he lost, and then quit boxing altogether;
Chavez was 87-0-0 when he faced Whitaker, 3 weight divisions over his best, he got a draw, and kept fighting and winning afterward;

Hagler's best weight was 158
Leonard's best weight was 147

Chavez' best weight was 129
Whitaker's best weight was 135

Hagler LOST to a naturally 11-lb smaller man;
Chavez DREW to a naturally 6-lb bigger man;

FACT: Chavez moved up in weight class, to Lightweight, NEVER lost, and DESTROYED everyone he fought there too;
FACT: Hagler never moved up in weight class, lost 3x and drew twice, in his best weight class;

FACT: EVERYONE who beat Hagler was his same size, or smaller; and so he never risked moving up;
FACT: NO ONE Chavez's size ever beat him;
FACT: NO ONE the next weight class up, Lightweight, ever beat Chavez either;
FACT: The only losses Chavez ever suffered were 2-3 weight divisions above his best, after he had NEARLY 90 FOCKING FIGHTS WITHOUT A SINGLE LOSS!!!

FACT: Chavez had a better record, on every level, any way you want to slice it, than Hagler did. Period.

So now, you tell me "why" ... what OBJECTIVE FACTS you have in your hand ... that could possibly place Hagler over Chavez pound-for-pound ... and what OBJECTIVE FACTS made you say Chavez was "the bigger man": than Whitaker

Jack

Bottom Line: So, no, you don't know how to think accurately ... so let me turn the light on for you