Quote Originally Posted by CA Jack View Post
Talent has nothing to do with gameness ... and gameness has nothing to do with talent.

This is why you have highly-talented dogs that quit the moment they get tired (or fall behind, if against another talented dog) ... and it's also why we have the term game plug (a dog that will never quit but is ineffective).

An entire book can be written on the subject of "talent" and what that means.
(I have a chapter of my own book describing talent.)

Some people confuse brute force for "talent" ... some people confuse "hard mouth" for talent ... but talent/power and talent/mouth are completely different things also.

IMO, talent is best described as, "A dog that is able to do what it wants, while preventing the other dog from doing what it wants."

The dog that is able to bite without being bitten; the dog that is able to establish control without being controlled, etc.
That is talent.

Talent = some kind of nebulous combination of intelligence + the athletic ability to execute the desired moves.

You attempt to build on talent (increase stamina, add mouth, power, gameness, etc.)

But talent itself has to do with the intelligence/savvy of knowing what to do + having the athletic ability to do it.

Jack
OK, that's what I thought, gameness & talent are not the same. They call the highly talented dog that only stays in the fight so long as he's ahead or not winded a front-running cur, don't they? He's game enough not to quit so long as things are going his way. Would seem like the game plug is the opposite of that (won't quit no matter how tired &/or beaten he is). Is a game plug worth breeding to? My guess would be no as there are probably many as game or more game dogs out there w/a ton more ability. Why reach for the mediocre when the excellent lies before us!

I always thought talent, or "ability" if you like, was more than just mouth. Aren't there components to talent? At least, that's what some have said. Beyond gameness, things like stamina, durability, bite, wrestling ability, driving power, ring savvy, pacing, intelligence...I have seen lists of these types of attributes, sometimes rank-ordered as to their importance (which obviously vary depending on who is being asked). I like that definition of talent, as it seems to neatly sum up all those factors. Intelligence + athleticism. I did cheat ahead in your terrific book, I must confess (couldn't help myself, reading out of order like that! I've always loved "fight dynamics"), & saw that you express a very definite preference in your dogs for the game, methodical dismantler as opposed to the hard-charging barnstormer. I guess if you could combine both sets of attributes or styles in one dog you would have the proverbial "ace of aces." The Holy Grail of game dogs. I'm pretty sure most guys don't even get one in a lifetime like that.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to the pesky questions/ramblings of a neophyte. It's appreciated.