Hey Jack not taking no sides but would like to know what
CJY said about the RB DOG most of my yard is based on them thanks tj
Hey Jack not taking no sides but would like to know what
CJY said about the RB DOG most of my yard is based on them thanks tj
He's already shared his experiences here.Originally Posted by cdj396
Jack
Some good and interesting reading right there.
Honestly, amigo, you shouldn't worry about what anyone says, including me.
My dogs haven't produced "the baddest of the bad" either.
A few have with crosses, but NONE of my pure dogs has ever made it to Grand Champion.
Most of my dogs just win when asked to, or sometimes lose, game, with a few not-so-game.
If you like your dogs, and if you're winning with them (or producing winners with them), then what else do you need?
But when you're talking about THE winningest combinations possible, you have to LOOK AT what's putting them out there.
I love the Hollingsworth dogs, but only ONE pure Lady In Red dog ever made Champion.
Most either won (or lost game) on 1 to 2 deals. At most.
But they were absolutely beautiful, absolutely game dogs. Nothing wrong with that.
I believe that the Hollingsworth dogs are the most consistently-game dogs ever, but I don't think they're the "baddest" or "multi-winningest" dogs ever.
There's a difference.
There is no reason for anyone to get mad, kick rocks, or sniffle boo-hoo over the statistical facts that can be harvested here.
They don't make your dogs (or my dogs) "suck" or anything else.
I love my dogs and I am absolutely confident in them beating anything their weight and then some. I am sure you feel the same way about yours.
These statistical tools merely give us quantified information.
From that information, we can all rub our chins and make more informed choices, that's all
Jack
Honestly, amigo, you shouldn't worry about what anyone says, including me.
My dogs haven't produced "the baddest of the bad" either.
A few have with crosses, but NONE of my pure dogs has ever made it to Grand Champion.
Most of my dogs just win when asked to, or sometimes lose, game, with a few not-so-game.
If you like your dogs, and if you're winning with them (or producing winners with them), then what else do you need?
But when you're talking about THE winningest combinations possible, you have to LOOK AT what's putting them out there.
I love the Hollingsworth dogs, but only ONE pure Lady In Red dog ever made Champion.
Most either won (or lost game) on 1 to 2 deals. At most.
But they were absolutely beautiful, absolutely game dogs. Nothing wrong with that.
I believe that the Hollingsworth dogs are the most consistently-game dogs ever, but I don't think they're the "baddest" or "multi-winningest" dogs ever.
There's a difference.
There is no reason for anyone to get mad, kick rocks, or sniffle boo-hoo over the statistical facts that can be harvested here.
They don't make your dogs (or my dogs) "suck" or anything else.
I love my dogs and I am absolutely confident in them beating anything their weight and then some. I am sure you feel the same way about yours.
These statistical tools merely give us quantified information.
From that information, we can all rub our chins and make more informed choices, that's all
Jack
That's as honest as it gets. I feel machobuck could have won 10. Just cause he was a bonafide killer. But a kennel accident took the cartilage out of his joint and we had to put a steel plate in there , and it would swell after two weeks of work.. Even swimming. So.. it wasn't in the cards.
Thank you
That's as honest as it gets.
The only way to arrive at the truth is to try to be honest and accurate.
It is a waste of time to do anything else.
I understand how you feel about the great Gr Ch Machobuck.
I feel if Ch Stormbringer were in the right hands he could have won 10 also.
I have never seen ANY dog in my life have that kind of body strength, pit savvy, and finish all in one package. Never.
I also feel that Gr Ch Zukill, who won 6 in a row, never having to go passed :48, even without any cutters, could have easily won 10.
I especially believe this if he had a full set of hangers.
But our "believing" or "feeling" these dogs "could have" won 10 isn't them actually doing it (even if our beliefs are knowledgeable and well-founded).
We can only go by facts, and what dogs actually do win. The facts are Stormy won 4 and Zukill won 6.
Your Gr Ch Machobuck won 5, and also earned a title few dogs ever see: DOY. In fact, Machobuck won nearly every title a dog can have.
There will always be asterisks (*) by certain dogs. There will always be intangibles we can never account for.
Maybe Chavis' Ch Zinc (6xW, 1xL) "would have" won 10 ... if he hadn't have run into Rebel Kennels' Gr Ch Sampson (5x BIS).
But the FACT is Ch Zinc did run into Gr Ch Sampson ... and the FACT is he lost ...
The truth is, if any of the dogs we THINK "could have" won 10 had faced other Champions or Grand Champions, as these two did, there could be a lot of surprises. Either way.
I was absolutely sure that Ch Tulipa 4xW, 4xBIS was going to be a Grand Champion. She was a freak of nature and widely considered the best bitch in Brazil's history.
Tulipa beat a Cardenas/Morfin bitch (a 2xW sister to a 6xW and a 4xW), spotting her 3 lb of weight in a HUGE international convention. She won BIS and GIS in 1:30.
Ch Tulipa won either BIS, or GIS (or both), in EVERY match she had, ALL of which were huge, international 10-14 card shows.
But the actual FACTS are, Ch Tulipa LOST her Gr Ch bid. I believe you experienced the same thing with one of your own great, 4xW bitches ... a killer also.
Killers lose too. In fact, The Old Man I know owned Ch Zinc for his last into Ricky. He said Zinc would kill you in the kidneys in 1-2 bites. Yet he lost too.
That is what separates fact from fantasy ... but nothing will take away from THE FACT these were all great dogs, including Ch Zinc.
Killing 6 in a row, and losing game to a 5xBIS Grand Champion, in one of the most successful competitor's hands, is still one helluvan effort from one helluva dog.
Jack
I absolutely agree with your full post but I like this part the most!
Yep.I absolutely agree with your full post but I like this part the most!
Most knowledgeable people realize even the greatest of dogs can lose when they step up in class and face other truly great dogs
For example, and once again, just recently the great Gr Ch Homer Balboa (6xW) was also a 6xW, a BIS, and DOY winner ... and yet he lost when he faced another great dog in Gr Ch Titere (7xW) ... who is now a DOY also. (Lotta Eli/Carver in that dog)
Furthermore, even if a person takes his great dog, and spot-picks and goes into "no name" dogs, he can still lose and get his ass handed to him, if it's a genuinely good and well-bred dog.
As yet another example in this RB/J-Eli/Carver debate, the great Eli/Carver (Rascal/Honeybunch) dog Hardcore's Ch Doogie was a 4xW and a DOY.
Doogie had defeated Keystone's CH Stryker and he had whipped Gr Ch Yellow's brother, the pure RBJ Tant's Ch Rocko (4xW), stopping Rocko from achieving his own Grand Championship.
(Same pattern, folks ...)
Yet when Hardcore took his great, 2-Champion-killer, and faced the NOBODY Ram ... who had his own little Eli/Carver dog Flash ... the great, titled Ch Doogie DOY ... LOST.
Granted, it was a 2:50 loss ... and, granted again, nobody knew Flash would grow up to be Champion Flash ... brother to Gr Ch Bossman (12xW) ... but he was another Eli/Carver dog
But that *is* the way things can go out there ...
All of these dogs are great dogs being talked about ...
Yet, actually winning 7 (let alone 10!) is a very rare thing indeed ... especially when facing the absolute best to be had in the sport of dogs.
Ken Allen and the A-Team tried to win 10x with at least 4 different Grand Champions.
- The pure RBJ dog Gr Ch Zinc (6xW) failed when he tried into the pure Eli/Carver Gr Ch Sampson (5xW).
- Even the UNK-bred Gr Ch Dooley (8xW) failed in 2:48 when he tried into Carver/Heinzl-bred Gr Ch Melonhead (14xW).
- The pure Carver/Bolio Gr Ch Robert T (9xW), who had the best resume of any dog mentioned here, still lost #10 into the UNK-bred Tito's Ch Ninja.
- ONLY the great Eli/Corvino-bred Gr Ch Tornado finally made it to 10x for Ken Allen & Co ... but she didn't do it facing other Chs & Gr Chs ...
So it's a lot more difficult to actually DO this, historically, than it is to project about it.
Especially when facing the kind of dogs Ken Allen and The A-Team faced back in the heyday of the APBT ...
But, if you pay attention, history does have a tendency to repeat itself ... and the same, basic combinations are the ones which are able to go the highest ...
While other very good combinations do build a consistent, very respectable record ... but almost invariably get weeded-out after 5-6x ... and never seem to rise up to the very highest altitudes
Jack
awesome topic Jack, but Ram's Ch Flash was only a 3x winner http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com...?dog_id=422665 , seen two of his shows. He was off Ch Rattler and the full brother to Ch Big Bossman this ped is wrong. I also agree with you 100%
Yep.
Most knowledgeable people realize even the greatest of dogs can lose when they step up in class and face other truly great dogs
For example, and once again, just recently the great Gr Ch Homer Balboa (6xW) was also a 6xW, a BIS, and DOY winner ... and yet he lost when he faced another great dog in Gr Ch Titere (7xW) ... who is now a DOY also. (Lotta Eli/Carver in that dog
Furthermore, even if a person takes his great dog, and spot-picks and goes into "no name" dogs, he can still lose and get his ass handed to him, if it's a genuinely good and well-bred dog.
As yet another example in this RB/J-Eli/Carver debate, the great Eli/Carver (Rascal/Honeybunch) dog Hardcore's Ch Doogie was a 4xW and a DOY.
Doogie had defeated Keystone's CH Stryker and he had whipped Gr Ch Yellow's brother, the pure RBJ Tant's Ch Rocko (4xW), stopping Rocko from achieving his own Grand Championship.
(Same pattern, folks ...)
Yet when Hardcore took his great, 2-Champion-killer, and faced the NOBODY Ram ... who had his own little Eli/Carver dog Flash ... the great, titled Ch Doogie DOY ... LOST.
Granted, it was a 2:50 loss ... and, granted again, nobody knew Flash would grow up to be Champion Flash ... brother to Gr Ch Bossman (12xW) ... but he was another Eli/Carver dog
But that *is* the way things can go out there ...
All of these dogs are great dogs being talked about ...
Yet, actually winning 7 (let alone 10!) is a very rare thing indeed ... especially when facing the absolute best to be had in the sport of dogs.
Ken Allen and the A-Team tried to win 10x with at least 4 different Grand Champions.
- The pure RBJ dog Gr Ch Zinc (6xW) failed when he tried into the pure Eli/Carver Gr Ch Sampson (5xW).
- Even the UNK-bred Gr Ch Dooley (8xW) failed in 2:48 when he tried into Carver/Heinzl-bred Gr Ch Melonhead (14xW).
- The pure Carver/Bolio Gr Ch Robert T (9xW), who had the best resume of any dog mentioned here, still lost #10 into the UNK-bred Tito's Ch Ninja.
- ONLY the great Eli/Corvino-bred Gr Ch Tornado finally made it to 10x for Ken Allen & Co ... but she didn't do it facing other Chs & Gr Chs ...
So it's a lot more difficult to actually DO this, historically, than it is to project about it.
Especially when facing the kind of dogs Ken Allen and The A-Team faced back in the heyday of the APBT ...
But, if you pay attention, history does have a tendency to repeat itself ... and the same, basic combinations are the ones which are able to go the highest ...
While other very good combinations do build a consistent, very respectable record ... but almost invariably get weeded-out after 5-6x ... and never seem to rise up to the very highest altitudes
Jack
Jack, this is Tito and the local boys Ch Ninja http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=21672
Eli/Ironhead
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