redboy dogs

[waccamaw]

Gameness has a lot to do with health and condition of the animal hunting,and what they are hunting .a good game animal in the hands of an idiot won't be so game ,to sum it up some people can screw up anything they touch.
Now back on the RBJ ,our line is a little different than most.we have focused on keeping it. 50/ 50 and only breeding solid bulldogs ,total package hunters .smart ,wide open barnstormer's,deep game ,and that heavy mouth .while some only focused on gameness or mouth ,and end up bouncing here and there ,we bred the ones that had it all .the end results total package dogs with a high percentage in each litter .this practice is what we call select breeding .i can't take anything away from any bloodline just certain strains of the bloodline ,you need to know what breeder has the best line .

[swampdawg]

Ditto to what Sonny said.

[Black Hand]

Selection. You can probably start with Eli dogs, Hollingsworth dogs, redboy dogs, jeep dogs. Really doesn't matter if your foundation is the WRONG dog from any one of those lines. And the RIGHT dog can help you path the way from any of those lines if you're able to retain it what you had in him. Any line of dog, didn't fall from the sky. A man created and retained the traits you see.

[Black Hand]

Some of those redboy dogs may be the exception and not the rule... But as long as it's the rule on my yard and not the exception who cares about the rest of em lol. Find it and build around it. I don't feed redboy dogs though, just speaking in general.

[Officially Retired]

I don't believe that any line of dogs is a DG line of dogs. There are DG individuals within all lines of dogs, but invariably, there are individuals WITHIN those lines that produce that on a higher average than others. And I think that dogs that produce that higher than above average gameness are always exceptions. I can't say as I blame you for trying to put on the brakes from all the "game line" talk as I've done that before.

Well said.

Any line of dogs that are mass bred and sold off to everyone with money to burn will become inconsistent junk. There is simply no way around that. I'm a firm believer that most folks shouldn't even contemplate breeding dogs. Hell, I still feel that way about myself at times. The difference is I'm letting the dogs, and the decisions I make, show me the error of my ways OR giving me the golden fruit, so to speak. I'm trying to keep everything I do, in house, so I can fully see what works how I want and what doesn't, and like I said in previous posts, I think I'm finally getting a handle on that.

Agreed. And I have said the same thing for years: most people shouldn't even contemplate breeding dogs. Amen to that.

In regards to matches and what not, invariably the dogs that quit during schooling don't get counted so much. I feel the same as you about your own dogs. When something has made it to a certain point for me, they've never quit past that point. Matches are tricky in the sense of timing, when to pickup, not picking up, leaving them down, etc.

This is true. But, here again, when the dogs are legitimately DG, they just don't quit regardless.

For example, I can think of dozens of dogs "that have lost" because of their keep, their condition, etc. Lost but not QUIT.

I do believe health and condition can affect gameness. I also believe styles, frustrations, depth of pain/injury can affect gameness.
One dog may quit if he gets bit in the stomach, or kidneys, yet not care if he's bit on the legs. Etc.

Yet some dogs just DO NOT QUIT ... and, no matter what happens, they keep going until the last bit of life escapes them.
And I can think of certain families of dogs (and families within families) that will pretty much DO THIS (way more often than they'll quit).

THAT is what I call "a DG family" of dogs: where damned near every dog on the yard will go the route.
And there are yards like that.

If our mutual friend Keith were still in dogs, he would be the one person I'd go to if I seriously wanted game Redboy dogs. Short of that, I can't think of another person I'd go to for something as serious as gameness regarding that line of dogs.

Understood.

And, really, if I open my own eyes a little wider, I would see that what I am talking about are Lady In Red dogs ... or "Poncho dogs" (whose mother was a 3/4 Lady In Red dog) ... not just any "Bolio/Tombstone" dogs ...

In the same fashion, I think MOST of the modern-day Bolio/Tombstone dogs aren't even close to being a "game line" either. (I've been through many dozens of them on my way to finding out what I wanted.)
In all my years in dogs, I have never found ANY segment of the Bolio/Tombstone dogs that had the % of gameness as "Lady In Red" dogs or, ultimately, my Poncho dogs. Not one.

In the same fashion, you probably have never found any Redboy dogs that give you the same % of gameness as Frosty Paws.
In your eyes, and experience, there are generic "Redboy dogs" and there are Frosty dogs.
Ultimately, what all this dialogue brings out is that we have to look for key individuals with any line, and try to linebreed off of them.

Hollingsworth did so with Lady In Red, I did so so with Poncho, and you are doing so with Frosty.

This idea that "any Redboy dog is going to be game" is as false as believing "any Bolio dog is going to be game." Not so!

Yet, within each of these lines, you will find certain key breeders who've got certain key/prepotent dogs, where pretty much any dog off of THEM is going to be a game dog ... or awful close to it.
And this is where re-establishing new sub-families off of main families becomes key, following proven linebreeding patterns based on these key individual prepotent dogs.

So, if nothing else, this discussion has tried to clear the air of breeding "general lines" versus breeding to specific key individuals within these lines.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Selection. You can probably start with Eli dogs, Hollingsworth dogs, redboy dogs, jeep dogs. Really doesn't matter if your foundation is the WRONG dog from any one of those lines. And the RIGHT dog can help you path the way from any of those lines if you're able to retain it what you had in him. Any line of dog, didn't fall from the sky. A man created and retained the traits you see.

Well said. Exactly.

[EWO]

Very well said. I think the man behind the dogs carries more weight than the family name itself. My Mims Redboy dogs are different than the Deacon Redboy dogs we experienced. Seen very few Holland bred dogs I liked. All Redboy, just different strains, and different strains develop because different people breed the same family for different reasons.

Take the Vise Grip dogs (own the board/get the guinea pig job, LOL). I could go to Jack (or Evolution/Garner/Mims/Boyles) anyone, and buy two males and two females. I may choose to breed A and C, and maybe one of these owners would have bred B and D based on their personal knowledge of their dogs. All the dogs in the pedigree will be Vise grip but if I make the decision on which two to breed this is they very beginning of the next strain. Then when I make the next decision and if it is not the one the line creator would have made there is more separation. Then (and this usually a lines fatal blow) I start selling Vise Grip dogs or Poncho dogs to any and everyone with $2, before you know Jack's Vise Grip/Poncho name will bear the burden of my shortcomings.

This happens to a lot of lines. Popularity, lack of knowledge and profitability will cripple the percentages of any family. Redboy no different. For me, and it is only my opinion, it is better to be more concerned with who the dog comes from rather than chasing a 30 year old name, i.e Redboy-Bolio-Eli-Dime-Dibo...etc...etc...EWO

Selection. You can probably start with Eli dogs, Hollingsworth dogs, redboy dogs, jeep dogs. Really doesn't matter if your foundation is the WRONG dog from any one of those lines. And the RIGHT dog can help you path the way from any of those lines if you're able to retain it what you had in him. Any line of dog, didn't fall from the sky. A man created and retained the traits you see.

[Officially Retired]

Very well said. I think the man behind the dogs carries more weight than the family name itself. My Mims Redboy dogs are different than the Deacon Redboy dogs we experienced. Seen very few Holland bred dogs I liked. All Redboy, just different strains, and different strains develop because different people breed the same family for different reasons.

Yes.

VTake the Vise Grip dogs (own the board/get the guinea pig job, LOL). I could go to Jack (or Evolution/Garner/Mims/Boyles) anyone, and buy two males and two females. I may choose to breed A and C, and maybe one of these owners would have bred B and D based on their personal knowledge of their dogs. All the dogs in the pedigree will be Vise grip but if I make the decision on which two to breed this is they very beginning of the next strain. Then when I make the next decision and if it is not the one the line creator would have made there is more separation.

True. However, most serious breeders will provide insight as to what would make a "breedable pair," a big purchase like that is seldom without breeder input, so the first step after delivery usually carries quite a bit of the breeder's input also.

However, which pups to keep is entirely up to the new owner.
Which breeding decisions to make beyond that, again entirely up to the new owner.

As far as matching dogs goes, I personally root for Poncho dogs no matter who has them ... and I am typically confident in their winning, no matter who bred them ... because they don't need to be mixed any special way to be at least SERIOUSLY GAME ... game enough to stop most other lines on the scratch line ... they got that down pretty good ... but I suppose, over time, I am going to see that start to change ...

Then (and this usually a lines fatal blow) I start selling Vise Grip dogs or Poncho dogs to any and everyone with $2, before you know Jack's Vise Grip/Poncho name will bear the burden of my shortcomings.

I am watching this happen right now

This happens to a lot of lines. Popularity, lack of knowledge and profitability will cripple the percentages of any family. Redboy no different. For me, and it is only my opinion, it is better to be more concerned with who the dog comes from rather than chasing a 30 year old name, i.e Redboy-Bolio-Eli-Dime-Dibo...etc...etc...EWO

Yes, absolutely. Good post.

Jack

[Frank43]

Very well said. I think the man behind the dogs carries more weight than the family name itself. My Mims Redboy dogs are different than the Deacon Redboy dogs we experienced. Seen very few Holland bred dogs I liked. All Redboy, just different strains, and different strains develop because different people breed the same family for different reasons.

Take the Vise Grip dogs (own the board/get the guinea pig job, LOL). I could go to Jack (or Evolution/Garner/Mims/Boyles) anyone, and buy two males and two females. I may choose to breed A and C, and maybe one of these owners would have bred B and D based on their personal knowledge of their dogs. All the dogs in the pedigree will be Vise grip but if I make the decision on which two to breed this is they very beginning of the next strain. Then when I make the next decision and if it is not the one the line creator would have made there is more separation. Then (and this usually a lines fatal blow) I start selling Vise Grip dogs or Poncho dogs to any and everyone with $2, before you know Jack's Vise Grip/Poncho name will bear the burden of my shortcomings.

This happens to a lot of lines. Popularity, lack of knowledge and profitability will cripple the percentages of any family. Redboy no different. For me, and it is only my opinion, it is better to be more concerned with who the dog comes from rather than chasing a 30 year old name, i.e Redboy-Bolio-Eli-Dime-Dibo...etc...etc...EWO

amen

[ROCK-MACHINE]

For the Boomer ROM Redboy dogs some of the best of it came by way of Red Spook. If I was looking for Redboy blood today though I would go with Panick's (Woodall's) Cod POR or his son Panick's Cod Sack.