Deep game or game enough?

[Officially Retired]

Of course people use extremes when comparing; it's a way to show a preference and make a point. On the subject of litter percentages, I should have clarified. I would rather have a higher percentage of quality match dogs that may or may not be deeply game than a litter full of deeply game hounds, but lack ability.

Well, that is what breeding is all about: selection.

My own view would be just the opposite, and my dogs have enjoyed a 20+ year career stopping other people's dogs ... well past the 1-2+ hour mark ... nearly 9x out of 10, precisely because this is the philosophy of most people.

I remember when I sold Vise-Grip's Igor to a fellow in New England. The guy rolled Igor out hard a couple of times, and stopped a couple "match prospects" with him, but he got rid of Igor because (he said) the dog "had no ability."

Well, the new guy who got Igor said he was going to really game-test Igor against an exceptionally-talented dog ... but when the smoke cleared Igor stopped this dog too in about :45. Igor was such a durable animal, and so deeply game, that these so-called "match dogs" just couldn't break him down like they could lighter-boned dogs of other bloodlines. So what does this genius do? He puts Igor uphill 16 lbs ... "to prove he'll quit" ... and this great big dog he used really did just slaughter poor Igor for about :35 ... just broke him up all to pieces because of his size advantage ... but by about the :40 min mark this big dog got tired and started to turn from the down Igor ... yet Igor (though he was dying) was still screaming with rage trying to get to this big POS ... and so the guy finally stopped it because there was just no way Igor was going to quit.

Well, the genius couldn't save the game Igor either (some people can't do anything right) and so the extremely game tough Igor lost his life to another idiot. The point here is if these two bozos would have just matched Igor (instead of trying to "game test him" and break his spirit FOUR TIMES) the dog could have been a 3-4xW ... as (even though Igor wasn't a very good athlete) he *did* have *two* tremendous assets: extreme gameness and extreme durability. These traits, to me, are worth more than absolutely anything as they are what define the breed

Another story, Gr Ch Zukill had a very game sister named O.G. Posse's Volcha. Now, Zukill was a true ace finishing dog. He won 6x in a row, in times between :19 and :48, and he did so without a cutter in his head. He was so strong he manhandled everything, and he favored kill spots (throat/kidney) and bit hard enough so that the pressure alone would DOA the opponent.

Well, his sister Volcha was just a plug IMO (seen the whole litter on a video OGP sent to me). Yet Volcha was matched into ProSet Kennels (who, at the time, had never lost a match). They were using one of them-thar "high ability" dogs (a daughter of Ch Bozak), and this bitch proceeded to whip the daylights out of Volcha ... for 30 min, 40 min, an hour, 1:30 ... but she could NOT kill the game, tough Volcha ... where other dogs would die to this Bozack bitch, Volcha was too game, and too tough, to just lay down and die ... and so by 1:45 Volcha pulled even with the Bozack bitch ... and by 2:15 she was on a down dog finishing her

So, here again, if you want to be satisfied with ordinary gameness, you'll have lots of people agreeing with you on that point. But my dogs have stopped WAY too many pretenders like this over the years for me to ever be satisfied with anything less than absolute gameness as a benchmark. Sure, I would rather have Zukill than Volcha. But I would breed to Volcha every time she came in heat, for the rest of her life, and never want to breed to the "high ability" ("pretty game") daughter of Bozack who ultimately laid down to Volcha after being ahead for 1:30 ...

Again, it is all about selection.

If I had a choice between breeding to a destroyer from a litter full of curs or a game plug, I'm not going to breed.

Well, I respectfully disagree with that posture.

Again, I personally would be glad to breed to a super-game plug, out of a litterful of excellent dogs, any day of the week.

Cheers,

Jack

[EWO]

Good post. Lots of good dogs are over looked, wasted or ruined in search of the ace, or the sure thing. EWO

Well, that is what breeding is all about: selection.

My own view would be just the opposite, and my dogs have enjoyed a 20+ year career stopping other people's dogs ... well past the 1-2+ hour mark ... nearly 9x out of 10, precisely because this is the philosophy of most people.

I remember when I sold Vise-Grip's Igor to a fellow in New England. The guy rolled Igor out hard a couple of times, and stopped a couple "match prospects" with him, but he got rid of Igor because (he said) the dog "had no ability."

Well, the new guy who got Igor said he was going to really game-test Igor against an exceptionally-talented dog ... but when the smoke cleared Igor stopped this dog too in about :45. Igor was such a durable animal, and so deeply game, that these so-called "match dogs" just couldn't break him down like they could lighter-boned dogs of other bloodlines. So what does this genius do? He puts Igor uphill 16 lbs ... "to prove he'll quit" ... and this great big dog he used really did just slaughter poor Igor for about :35 ... just broke him up all to pieces because of his size advantage ... but by about the :40 min mark this big dog got tired and started to turn from the down Igor ... yet Igor (though he was dying) was still screaming with rage trying to get to this big POS ... and so the guy finally stopped it because there was just no way Igor was going to quit.

Well, the genius couldn't save the game Igor either (some people can't do anything right) and so this game tough bulldog lost his life to another idiot. The point here is if these two bozos would have just matched Igor (instead of trying to "game test him" and break his spirit FOUR TIMES) the dog could have been a 3-4xW ... as (even though Igor wasn't a very good athlete) he *did* have *two* tremendous assets: extreme gameness and extreme durability. These traits, to me, are worth more than absolutely anything as they are what define the breed

Another story, Gr Ch Zukill had a very game sister named O.G. Posse's Volcha. Now, Zukill was a true ace finishing dog. He won 6x in a row, in times between :19 and :48, and he did so without a cutter in his head. He was so strong he manhandled everything, and he favored kill spots (throat/kidney) and bit hard enough so that the pressure alone would DOA the opponent.

Well, his sister Volcha was just a plug IMO (seen the whole litter on a video OGP sent to me). Yet Volcha was matched into ProSet Kennels (who, at the time, had never lost a match). They were using one of them-thar "high ability" dogs (a daughter of Ch Bozak), and this bitch proceeded to whip the daylights out of Volcha ... for 30 min, 40 min, an hour, 1:30 ... but she could NOT kill the game, tough Volcha ... where other dogs would die to this Bozack bitch, Volcha was too game, and too tough, to just lay down and die ... and so by 1:45 Volcha pulled even with the Bozack bitch ... and by 2:15 she was on a down dog finishing her

So, here again, if you want to be satisfied with ordinary gameness, you'll have lots of people agreeing with you on that point. But my dogs have stopped WAY too many pretenders like this over the years for me to ever be satisfied with anything less than absolute gameness as a benchmark. Sure, I would rather have Zukill than Volcha. But I would breed to Volcha every time she came in heat, for the rest of her life, and never want to breed to "the high ability" daughter of Bozack who laid down to her after being ahead for 1:30 ...

Again, it is all about selection.





Well, I respectfully disagree with that posture.

Again, I personally would be glad to breed to a super-game plug, out of a litterful of excellent dogs, any day of the week.

Cheers,

Jack