Breeding Dogs With Structural Defects

[projectx]

Hi jack i would like to touch on your comment about following in the footsteps of men like garner /patrick/ hamonds and boudreaux , but i think that may need to be on a new thread as i would like to say something about them but for now i will just add that as for the rufus dog that gary used to breed with and you said that for you to breed to a deaf dog it would have to have been an outstanding dog and one that was a one in a thousand before you would even consider it .
Well in garys own interveiw he acknowledges that the deaf dogs in the aligator line come form rufus ,and that he himself thinks that it is a disadvantage for a dog to be deaf ,and that he wouldnt want to breed a line of deaf dogs , and that he gets one about every 50 or so dogs down from rufus , which means that every 7 litters approx he gets a deaf dog based on anything down from his rufus stock and that has been going on for 40 years and how many thousands of pupies has he bred in over 40 years with an average of one deaf one every in every50 ? thats a lot of deaf pups thats for sure , so wouldnt you think that rather than keep breeding and selling the deaf ones back into his own stock when they appear as he has done, that he might have thought it wise to cull them so as to at least take out the ones he can which would make more sense , and not only that but also not sell them to other breeders as brood stock regardless of whether they want them or not, as i would think any breeder worth his salt would want to make sure that they have a qualty control of their blood even if another breeder doesnt and as such refuse to sell them a deaf dog for breeding .
Rufus was around 7 years old when gary got him and was in no way an outstanding dog in the way you talked about for a dog who was carrying such a fault would have to be for you to even consider breeding to it , and not only that but he didnt know the dog was deaf when he bought it, so i can only assume the folks who sold him the dog the bennets either took him for a fool or thought that it was obvious rufus was deaf and gary should have noticed it, but gary himself says he had the dog a LONG TIME before he noticed rufus was deaf which leaves me lost for words and anything i say about that will be taken as trying to discredit gary , but that statement alone in his own interview tells me everything i need to know ,and im glad i dont wear glasses and if i ever do they wont be rose coloured thats for sure.

Now i know NQK likes to accuse me of trying to discredit gary every chance i get , which is not the case , im merely saying what i belive to be true about him in this case and i want to be fair ,so yes he has like many other men put out dogs from bad to outstanding, but if he himself doesnt think breeding deaf dogs is a good idea, and wouldnt want to breed a line of deaf dogs, then why has he done just that by the very fact that he hasnt culled them when they pop up but breeds them ,and also sells them on to others even to do the same with , which is not what i think an honest or good breeder would want to do especially if the brood dogs he sells are for his own line of dogs on another mans yard , thats even worse as your increasing the chances of more DEAF dogs.
So if anyone is discredting gary its gary himself , and whether NQK or anyone else who looks at gary through there rose coloured glases thinks thats good breeding practice after 40 years of doing it,then good luck to them .

[projectx]

I dont have a hard on for gary at all , you dont like the message i give becasue you cant see past what you want to see ,and hindsight is a wonderfulll thing ,but you see we can only know whether a defective dog could have been a good producer or not if we breed him , and unless you have hindsight and see into the future ,thenbreeding him is taking a risk rather than good breeding practice and thank god its not the norm to bred deaf dogs among breeders with good breeding practices but you obviuosly are not one of them if you think its fine and dandy to do it as the norm like gary has done for 40 years, and you still say your not biased towards him lol.

No, the point was to contradict your perspective that a dog of great production capabilities shouldn't be bred b/c he's deaf. Don't know the circumstances, but since this guy, Hammonds, like him or not, has produced more quality animals than yourself, I'd have to say he knew something others may not have known since a "defective" dog produced so many great dogs.

As for using the luxury of hindsight by saying( look how good rufus produced and if you take him out of the lineage of dogs after him analyze the family then), its a riddiculous thing to say , because the dogs in the lineage after him wouldnt exist if he hadnt been bred to produce them in the first place , now whos got a retarded way of thinking.

That's exactly what I said.
I'm not kennel blind by any friends, dogs or anything else in my life. I'm not close minded. I pay attention to reality, truth and relevance. We'll just have to disagree and move on down the road. You rarely make much sense to me and I doubt you like me either, so I'll let it go.

Have a great Christmas.

Nqk i dont have anything against you , so when you say its obvious that i dont like you , that can only be coming from you feeling like im attacking you becasue of your feelings about gary because you run his blood ,and as i told you before i understand that you feel like that, its human nature, but i dont dislike you at all so maybe you need to evaluate how obviuosly attached you are to not seeing reality becasue of your emotional attachment to gary or his dogs that you feed.
As for hindsight , well gary didnt even notice rufus was deaf , and he like many others breeders took a chance and bred to a dog that under normal circumstances wouldnt be bred and got lucky, and you can try to talk it any way you like, but unless gary knew rufus would produce like he did , which none can know not even gary (who cant even tell hes got a deaf dog infront of him ) and as rufus was not even an outstanding pit dog that was so out of this world that even jack said he might breed to a dog like that even with deafness, then what criterior did gary use for breeding the dog ? becasue rufus was not an outstanding dog , so it was a chance he took and he like many other men who have bred either defective dogs or dogs with a severe defect like deafness or in many cases a cur dog who produced out of the ass ,but at the time they bred those dogs they could only have known one thing for sure , and thats not that the dog was going to produce well for them but that they were breding a dog that was either carrying a fault like rufus was or another severe structural or health fault or that thier dog was a cur , that is the only sure thing they could have known and taken to the bank before they decided to breed that dog, so lets be honest and say that with looking at things after the event we could all bet on the winner , but luck plays a part in all breedings even the ones that have all the right qualities in place beforehand and very often even they dont prove any good either , but to start with one hand tied behind your back even if it turns out well is not the right way to do it even if you get lucky it doesnt mean its right it just means you got lucky so lets be honest and stop trying to make excuses like we would for our child when the teacher say your kid is causing trouble in class, and we always try to defend our kid even if we know hes a little tearaway and we know the teachers probably right ,but rather than face it we make excuses for them ,and 9 times out of ten thosoe kids pay you back by turning out just like they said he would a bad apple, but hey he was our little johnny so he can do no wrong right? wrong those rose cloured glasses atr it again.

[S_B]

One thing people should starting doing more of now a days is minding their own business, and concentrate more on what they themselves want to achieve and worry less about what others are achieving, or screwing up.


At the end of the day, it is to each his own, and doesn't concern anyone else but his own, so long as no harm is being done to another human being.

These dogs suffer more from jealous opinions and others slanderous comments against fellow dogmen, as well as the stock they choose to feed than any harm the H$U$, animal rights groups or the like can throw at them.

ProjectX, I'm sure you are a good dude, and I'm sure you feel justified about everything you feel. That is YOUR right, just as well as it is anyone else's right to the same.

The furr mommies with their pitties stick together better than any dogmen I ever saw, it's a damn shame.

[projectx]

One thing people should starting doing more of now a days is minding their own business, and concentrate more on what they themselves want to achieve and worry less about what others are achieving, or screwing up.


At the end of the day, it is to each his own, and doesn't concern anyone else but his own, so long as no harm is being done to another human being.

These dogs suffer more from jealous opinions and others slanderous comments against fellow dogmen, as well as the stock they choose to feed than any harm the H$U$, animal rights groups or the like can throw at them.

ProjectX, I'm sure you are a good dude, and I'm sure you feel justified about everything you feel. That is YOUR right, just as well as it is anyone else's right to the same.

The furr mommies with their pitties stick together better than any dogmen I ever saw, it's a damn shame.

Hi sb im sure your a nice guy to , but as you mentioned me in your post i will assume your mini rant was based on what i have said in my posts ,so i will reply to you directly.
You start your post by saying that we or I should mind our or my own buisness , but this is a forum about gamedogs and this is a thread about breeding dogs with defects it would be pretty useless forum if nobody ever psoted anything on it, so i assume before you made your post you read all the other posts includeding mine before making your post, but you yourself say nothing about the subject were talking about at all , so in that respect you have added nothing to the disscusion, which is a shame .

As for us dogmen not sticking toggether because if we say something like i have about another breeders breeding practices , it is somehow jealous or slanderous in your opinion, but i have at least tried in the most easy to understand way possible to explain why i think what i think about that ,and i think you need to look up what slander actually means before trying to accuse me of it, but maybe you are another one of those dogmen that wear rose coloured glasses when its concerning something they have an attachment to themselves.

What i feel is a real shame sb is that you would rather we say nothing even if it needs saying , and i suppose that includes talking about other subjects like ped faking which in your world unless i have misunderstood you we should all turn a blind eye to and never say anything about that either , now that is what i call a real shame and i will never stick toggether with a dogman like that , or any so called dogman who would happily decive the rest of us with their bullshit , so you are welcome to stand shoulder to shoulder with dogmen like that sb be my guest.

[Officially Retired]

Hi jack i would like to touch on your comment about following in the footsteps of men like garner /patrick/ hamonds and boudreaux , but i think that may need to be on a new thread as i would like to say something about them but for now i will just add that as for the rufus dog that gary used to breed with and you said that for you to breed to a deaf dog it would have to have been an outstanding dog and one that was a one in a thousand before you would even consider it .

Start such a thread if you like.

Just know that, by "following in their footsteps," I meant as a family bloodline breeder only.
There aren't many of these.
Very few people have started and perpetuated their own line.

My standards, preferences, and selection methods are entirely my own.

Well in garys own interveiw he acknowledges that the deaf dogs in the aligator line come form rufus ,and that he himself thinks that it is a disadvantage for a dog to be deaf ,and that he wouldnt want to breed a line of deaf dogs , and that he gets one about every 50 or so dogs down from rufus , which means that every 7 litters approx he gets a deaf dog based on anything down from his rufus stock and that has been going on for 40 years and how many thousands of pupies has he bred in over 40 years with an average of one deaf one every in every50 ? thats a lot of deaf pups thats for sure , so wouldnt you think that rather than keep breeding and selling the deaf ones back into his own stock when they appear as he has done, that he might have thought it wise to cull them so as to at least take out the ones he can which would make more sense , and not only that but also not sell them to other breeders as brood stock regardless of whether they want them or not, as i would think any breeder worth his salt would want to make sure that they have a qualty control of their blood even if another breeder doesnt and as such refuse to sell them a deaf dog for breeding .

1 in 50 = 2%.

A 2% error margin is considered very low.

No breeder, in the history of the world, gets a 0% error margin in what he breeds, defect-wise. No one.

Rufus was around 7 years old when gary got him and was in no way an outstanding dog in the way you talked about for a dog who was carrying such a fault would have to be for you to even consider breeding to it , and not only that but he didnt know the dog was deaf when he bought it, so i can only assume the folks who sold him the dog the bennets either took him for a fool or thought that it was obvious rufus was deaf and gary should have noticed it, but gary himself says he had the dog a LONG TIME before he noticed rufus was deaf which leaves me lost for words and anything i say about that will be taken as trying to discredit gary , but that statement alone in his own interview tells me everything i need to know ,and im glad i dont wear glasses and if i ever do they wont be rose coloured thats for sure.

Gary probably bred Rufus based on his pedigree, feeling that his blood was strong and that he could produce. Based on Rufus' production record, I would say Gary was correct in his assessment.

Maybe Gary never knew because he just kept Rufus on a chain and didn't interact with him much, I don't know. But I don't see the point in berating the man. He's been in the game a long time, taken the time to write great articles and books that have helped a lot of folks, and in fact is the source of my information on treating cancerous teats in bitches. So Gary has done a lot of good for the fraternity.

How about you? What positive things have you done for the fraternity?

Now i know NQK likes to accuse me of trying to discredit gary every chance i get , which is not the case , im merely saying what i belive to be true about him in this case and i want to be fair ,so yes he has like many other men put out dogs from bad to outstanding, but if he himself doesnt think breeding deaf dogs is a good idea, and wouldnt want to breed a line of deaf dogs, then why has he done just that by the very fact that he hasnt culled them when they pop up but breeds them ,and also sells them on to others even to do the same with , which is not what i think an honest or good breeder would want to do especially if the brood dogs he sells are for his own line of dogs on another mans yard , thats even worse as your increasing the chances of more DEAF dogs.
So if anyone is discredting gary its gary himself , and whether NQK or anyone else who looks at gary through there rose coloured glases thinks thats good breeding practice after 40 years of doing it,then good luck to them .

I disagree that you are not trying to discredit Gary. It is quite obvious that you are.

I have to agree that (based on this and other posts) you suffer from a boundary disorder and pretty much only post opinions/derisions of others, always in the negative, and always about what you feel "others" should do differently. I personally don't care what Gary does or doesn't do with his own dogs. Dogs are pretty much "happy campers" whether deaf, blind, or with mangy feet. Only we humans seem to feel sorry for ourselves (and every other creature on the planet) ... and only we humans suffer from the insanity of "not being satisfied" with what other people do. You seriously have a problem with meddling/obsessing with the habits/practices of others.

The fact is, Gary isn't hurting anybody or hurting any dogs. I could see getting upset if he were skinning dogs alive, or bludgeoning them to death, or committing some kind of atrocity over there on his yard. But he is not. He is just trying to breed game dogs and is maybe producing a few deaf dogs along the way. So what? His dogs have won a lot of dog deals, so it's not like he's breeding blue dogs or something.

Again, he has also contributed to Gamedog history through his books and writings, not to mention having a hand in producing the winningest male of modern history, Melonhead.

I don't see the point in saying the same thing, over and over and over again, about his breeding deaf dogs occasionally. 2% is not a bad number, and there are worse traits a dog can have than being deaf.

I am seriously curious as to what positive contributions to the breed you have made, and if you ever have anything POSITIVE to say about anyone/anything?

Jack

.

[projectx]

Start such a thread if you like.

Just know that, by "following in their footsteps," I meant as a family bloodline breeder only.
There aren't many of these.
Very few people have started and perpetuated their own line.

My standards, preferences, and selection methods are entirely my own.





1 in 50 = 2%.

A 2% error margin is considered very low.

No breeder, in the history of the world, gets a 0% error margin in what he breeds, defect-wise. No one.





Gary probably bred Rufus based on his pedigree, feeling that his blood was strong and that he could produce. Based on Rufus' production record, I would say Gary was correct in his assessment.

Maybe Gary never knew because he just kept Rufus on a chain and didn't interact with him much, I don't know. But I don't see the point in berating the man. He's been in the game a long time, taken the time to write great articles and books that have helped a lot of folks, and in fact is the source of my information on treating cancerous teats in bitches. So Gary has done a lot of good for the fraternity.

How about you? What positive things have you done for the fraternity?





I disagree that you are not trying to discredit Gary. It is quite obvious that you are.

I have to agree that (based on this and other posts) you suffer from a boundary disorder and pretty much only post opinions/derisions of others, always in the negative, and always about what you feel "others" should do differently. I personally don't care what Gary does or doesn't do with his own dogs. Dogs are pretty much "happy campers" whether deaf, blind, or with mangy feet. Only we humans seem to feel sorry for ourselves (and every other creature on the planet) ... and only we humans suffer from the insanity of "not being satisfied" with what other people do. You seriously have a problem with meddling/obsessing with the habits/practices of others.

The fact is, Gary isn't hurting anybody or hurting any dogs. I could see getting upset if he were skinning dogs alive, or bludgeoning them to death, or committing some kind of atrocity over there on his yard. But he is not. He is just trying to breed game dogs and is maybe producing a few deaf dogs along the way. So what? His dogs have won a lot of dog deals, so it's not like he's breeding blue dogs or something.

Again, he has also contributed to Gamedog history through his books and writings, not to mention having a hand in producing the winningest male of modern history, Melonhead.

I don't see the point in saying the same thing, over and over and over again, about his breeding deaf dogs occasionally. 2% is not a bad number, and there are worse traits a dog can have than being deaf.

I am seriously curious as to what positive contributions to the breed you have made, and if you ever have anything POSITIVE to say about anyone/anything?

Jack

.

Jack to begin with , you feel that i make posts that are negative, well if i like others think something is wrong then the post unfortunately will probably come over as a negative post, as i think in a previous reply to one of my posts you and me were pretty much on the same page as far as when and why any of us would breed dogs with a serious or at least relatively serious defect , so its not that i dislike gary in particular, its just that sometimes even if like NQK and others who have a vested interest in garys line as they run it themselves, they cant bring themselves to ever admit or agree that the man who they got their dogs from could ever be wrong in certain things , and that their shit doesnt stink so to speak, which is why i always say that we should all take off our rose coloured glases as we have all at one time suffered from that same thing .

So yes i may sound negative if i feel something is wrong , and breeding to a non outstanding dog as you yourself said jack not once but many times over 40 years and having a line that is known for its DEAF dogs which gary himself says he would not want to do , but infact has done ,seems to be a stupid thing to do over and over again , and if its negative or as NQK likes to say that i am trying to discredit gary , well i think gary in this instance has done that himself , and jack just because you and me have had issues its like even when im right im wrong , but your last post sounds like a lets not say anything against gary eventhough you yourself said that ONLY IF A DOG (WHICH RUFUS WASNT ) WAS AN OUTSTANDING DOG AND A ONE IN A THOUSAND WHICH YOU COULNDT FIND AGAIN WOULD YOU EVER CONSIDER BREEDING TO A DEAF DOG , so even if you want to try and make me out to only be saying it to be negative towards gary , and now try to put up percentages and say oh well its only 2% to try and make it sound like its ok , when you yourself said that in over 20 years of breeding you have never had a deaf dog , so 2% may seem low when put like that , but the point is if gary had not bred them back in as he has done and under your own rules jack of when and only when you would ever do that ,why do you think that his continually breeding in dogs that are deaf and selling deaf dogs for breeding stock to others is a good thing to do and good breeding practice because your last post was i consider negative towards me for me just saying what you yourself agree with that you would only ever maybe under extreme circumstances breed to a deaf dog , but you would rather try to put me down and say im negative .

Yes gary has been around the dogs for many years ,and i have said that he has put out good dogs like many others have done but does that mean i or anyone else is not allowed to say anything that isnt all positive if it isnt ? are we to not say that a dog has a false ped when we think or know it has ? there is no rule where we msut only post when we have something positive to say , maybe its becasue there are many of those already and i never started the breeding dogs with structural faults thread to then go on to try to discredit gary , and infact if that was my objective i could start threads all day long and use them to do just that about anyone if i was trying to do it but im not .

Yes i found it funny that he didnt notice rufus was deaf , and again you tried to make it seem less funny or stupid by making excuses for him not noticing it, but considering NQK thinks that gary ( and yes this guru type bull way of thinking about our dogmen heros that he somehow had a super perception and thats why he bred rufus a deaf dog, as he knew being so perceptive and all knowing that he would produce well ) yet he didnt even notice not after a day but in his own words A LONG TIME later that he was deaf amde me laugh.So maybe as i say when were to close to someone or attached to them we put them on a pedastal and give them qualities they maybe dont have, and i found that not noticing rufus was deaf a good example of that , but human nature doesnt allow some people to see the obvious even when they see it , thats the rose coloured glases syndrome which i myself used to suffer from but not anymore .

Jack i agree with you about why gary probably decided to breed rufus knowing he was deaf , and as you said it was because he was bred well , and i said this in previuos posts were i feel that the reason most dogmen breed their defective dogs is for that reason mostly and as i said before when you ask them why or read stories of the same they always say WELL HE WAS BRED WELL ,so i understsand that but you then go on to say oh i dont care what gary or anyone else does with there dogs , etc etc , well im sure most of us dont care about what others do with there dogs, but as this is a forum with threads on various aspects of the dogs , i assume that the forum is there for a cross section of posts of which depending on the subject matter will be more black and white and others less so , but im sure that whehter the man who posts on what dog feed he thinks is the best comapred to what another man says he feeds his dogs with doesnt mean he gives a shit about what the other guy feeds , but he posts what he thinks is a good feed becasue he thinks it is , just like i posted about what i think is correct versus incorrect on this thread , that doesnt mean i care whether gary or any other breeder continually breeds a defect into their line or not, because just like the guy who uses what he thinks is a good feed and posts it on here its just another opinion for others whether emotionally attached to a particular line or dogman or not to take or leave as they like , im would hope theyb wouldnt continue doing it but thats upto them, just like im sure for you jack when you put out your info on meds and other very usefull info , you would like to think that some or maybe all who read it would gain some benefit from that info, but i bet you dont loose sleep over whether they take it on board or not, and i dont loose any thinking about what any other breeder is doing good or bad breeding practice, but just like you and me and thousands maybe millions of others out there who post on all subjects we do post it not becasue we want to meddle in what others are doing as you said , but because i like you and others tell it like we see it and thats it , if they agree or disagree thats fine , and im sure gary will continue to breed his deaf dogs just like i wouldnt so if every post or any post that critises one way of doing something is called meddling ,then every post could be considered meddliling, be it what we feed to how we house and breed our dogs to how we trian them etc etc etc , SO i will say it just to be clear , i DONT GIVE A FLYING RATS BEHIND IF ANYONE AGREES OR DISAGREES WITH MY OPINIONS AND I DONT CARE SO PLEASE DONT TRY TO SAY IM MEDDLING BY POINTING OUT WHAT I FEEL IS NOT IN THE INSTANCE OF CONTINUALLY BREEDING DEFECTIVE DOGS AS DEFINED BY YOU ALSO JACK A GOOD WAY OF BREEDING be it by gary hammonds or anyone else .

I hope jack that if i post on other sujects or even start a thread on a suject like fake peds , that i will also not be called meddling by you , if as in the case of of a dog like tombstone who is in the peds of your foundation dogs ,you would like to know what is probalby the true ped of the dog and not the one put out on him, i would hope you would like many others would like to look at that, and again take it or leave it with the other info provide to support the true ped theory , rather than call it meddling .

[S_B]

Projectx, I didn't accuse you of slander, but you obviously felt threatened by the comment.

I don't look to breed dogs with structural defects, if a minor defect pops up, such as slipped hocks for instance, as mentioned here earlier. I would over look it, if most everything else I was looking for in that particular animal was in place.

Gamedogs, who are performance bred are not without defects, as "structure" is not the main focus. Form follows function in most all working breeds, ours is no different.

I would be more inclined to read all of your lengthy posts, if you were actually discussing what you as a breeder has contributed breeding your own dogs. And what superior qualities your dogs bring to the table, instead of what someone else's does not.

And you completely misunderstood me about correctly represented and entered pedigrees as pertains to this database. I haven't turned a blind eye at all when it comes to this, as I want the TRUTH entered here as well as recorded elsewhere. Not sure how you would have come to that conclusion AT ALL.

I have actually corrected some of your data entry in this pedigree database.

[Officially Retired]

I would be more inclined to read all of your lengthy posts, if you were actually discussing what you as a breeder has contributed breeding your own dogs. And what superior qualities your dogs bring to the table, instead of what someone else's does not.

I didn't even bother to read that last response either, for those exact reasons.

It is far easier to point out "the cracks in a Great Monument" than it is to build a better monument yourself.

Jack

[No Quarter Kennel]

Jack to begin with , you feel that i make posts that are negative, well if i like others think something is wrong then the post unfortunately will probably come over as a negative post, as i think in a previous reply to one of my posts you and me were pretty much on the same page as far as when and why any of us would breed dogs with a serious or at least relatively serious defect , so its not that i dislike gary in particular, its just that sometimes even if like NQK and others who have a vested interest in garys line as they run it themselves, they cant bring themselves to ever admit or agree that the man who they got their dogs from could ever be wrong in certain things , and that their shit doesnt stink so to speak, which is why i always say that we should all take off our rose coloured glases as we have all at one time suffered from that same thing .

So yes i may sound negative if i feel something is wrong , and breeding to a non outstanding dog as you yourself said jack not once but many times over 40 years and having a line that is known for its DEAF dogs which gary himself says he would not want to do , but infact has done ,seems to be a stupid thing to do over and over again , and if its negative or as NQK likes to say that i am trying to discredit gary , well i think gary in this instance has done that himself , and jack just because you and me have had issues its like even when im right im wrong , but your last post sounds like a lets not say anything against gary eventhough you yourself said that ONLY IF A DOG (WHICH RUFUS WASNT ) WAS AN OUTSTANDING DOG AND A ONE IN A THOUSAND WHICH YOU COULNDT FIND AGAIN WOULD YOU EVER CONSIDER BREEDING TO A DEAF DOG , so even if you want to try and make me out to only be saying it to be negative towards gary , and now try to put up percentages and say oh well its only 2% to try and make it sound like its ok , when you yourself said that in over 20 years of breeding you have never had a deaf dog , so 2% may seem low when put like that , but the point is if gary had not bred them back in as he has done and under your own rules jack of when and only when you would ever do that ,why do you think that his continually breeding in dogs that are deaf and selling deaf dogs for breeding stock to others is a good thing to do and good breeding practice because your last post was i consider negative towards me for me just saying what you yourself agree with that you would only ever maybe under extreme circumstances breed to a deaf dog , but you would rather try to put me down and say im negative .

Yes gary has been around the dogs for many years ,and i have said that he has put out good dogs like many others have done but does that mean i or anyone else is not allowed to say anything that isnt all positive if it isnt ? are we to not say that a dog has a false ped when we think or know it has ? there is no rule where we msut only post when we have something positive to say , maybe its becasue there are many of those already and i never started the breeding dogs with structural faults thread to then go on to try to discredit gary , and infact if that was my objective i could start threads all day long and use them to do just that about anyone if i was trying to do it but im not .

Yes i found it funny that he didnt notice rufus was deaf , and again you tried to make it seem less funny or stupid by making excuses for him not noticing it, but considering NQK thinks that gary ( and yes this guru type bull way of thinking about our dogmen heros that he somehow had a super perception and thats why he bred rufus a deaf dog, as he knew being so perceptive and all knowing that he would produce well ) yet he didnt even notice not after a day but in his own words A LONG TIME later that he was deaf amde me laugh.So maybe as i say when were to close to someone or attached to them we put them on a pedastal and give them qualities they maybe dont have, and i found that not noticing rufus was deaf a good example of that , but human nature doesnt allow some people to see the obvious even when they see it , thats the rose coloured glases syndrome which i myself used to suffer from but not anymore .

Jack i agree with you about why gary probably decided to breed rufus knowing he was deaf , and as you said it was because he was bred well , and i said this in previuos posts were i feel that the reason most dogmen breed their defective dogs is for that reason mostly and as i said before when you ask them why or read stories of the same they always say WELL HE WAS BRED WELL ,so i understsand that but you then go on to say oh i dont care what gary or anyone else does with there dogs , etc etc , well im sure most of us dont care about what others do with there dogs, but as this is a forum with threads on various aspects of the dogs , i assume that the forum is there for a cross section of posts of which depending on the subject matter will be more black and white and others less so , but im sure that whehter the man who posts on what dog feed he thinks is the best comapred to what another man says he feeds his dogs with doesnt mean he gives a shit about what the other guy feeds , but he posts what he thinks is a good feed becasue he thinks it is , just like i posted about what i think is correct versus incorrect on this thread , that doesnt mean i care whether gary or any other breeder continually breeds a defect into their line or not, because just like the guy who uses what he thinks is a good feed and posts it on here its just another opinion for others whether emotionally attached to a particular line or dogman or not to take or leave as they like , im would hope theyb wouldnt continue doing it but thats upto them, just like im sure for you jack when you put out your info on meds and other very usefull info , you would like to think that some or maybe all who read it would gain some benefit from that info, but i bet you dont loose sleep over whether they take it on board or not, and i dont loose any thinking about what any other breeder is doing good or bad breeding practice, but just like you and me and thousands maybe millions of others out there who post on all subjects we do post it not becasue we want to meddle in what others are doing as you said , but because i like you and others tell it like we see it and thats it , if they agree or disagree thats fine , and im sure gary will continue to breed his deaf dogs just like i wouldnt so if every post or any post that critises one way of doing something is called meddling ,then every post could be considered meddliling, be it what we feed to how we house and breed our dogs to how we trian them etc etc etc , SO i will say it just to be clear , i DONT GIVE A FLYING RATS BEHIND IF ANYONE AGREES OR DISAGREES WITH MY OPINIONS AND I DONT CARE SO PLEASE DONT TRY TO SAY IM MEDDLING BY POINTING OUT WHAT I FEEL IS NOT IN THE INSTANCE OF CONTINUALLY BREEDING DEFECTIVE DOGS AS DEFINED BY YOU ALSO JACK A GOOD WAY OF BREEDING be it by gary hammonds or anyone else .

I hope jack that if i post on other sujects or even start a thread on a suject like fake peds , that i will also not be called meddling by you , if as in the case of of a dog like tombstone who is in the peds of your foundation dogs ,you would like to know what is probalby the true ped of the dog and not the one put out on him, i would hope you would like many others would like to look at that, and again take it or leave it with the other info provide to support the true ped theory , rather than call it meddling .

Seriously, I don't even wear colored glasses for loved ones. I don't for anyone or anything.
I would greatly appreciate it if you would leave my name completely out of anything you want to discuss on this forum as I could NOT, in anyway shape or form, care any less about you, your opinions or anything related to you.

Have a wonderful Christmas

[projectx]

Projectx, I didn't accuse you of slander, but you obviously felt threatened by the comment.

I don't look to breed dogs with structural defects, if a minor defect pops up, such as slipped hocks for instance, as mentioned here earlier. I would over look it, if most everything else I was looking for in that particular animal was in place.

Gamedogs, who are performance bred are not without defects, as "structure" is not the main focus. Form follows function in most all working breeds, ours is no different.

I would be more inclined to read all of your lengthy posts, if you were actually discussing what you as a breeder has contributed breeding your own dogs. And what superior qualities your dogs bring to the table, instead of what someone else's does not.

And you completely misunderstood me about correctly represented and entered pedigrees as pertains to this database. I haven't turned a blind eye at all when it comes to this, as I want the TRUTH entered here as well as recorded elsewhere. Not sure how you would have come to that conclusion AT ALL.

I have actually corrected some of your data entry in this pedigree database.

Sb if you never said i slandered anyone why mention my name along with slander in the post, and believe me you do not threaten me at all , its my feeling that i threaten all of the ones who dont see to good from their rose coloured glasses they been wearing or from having their nose so far up their heros ass they cant see the wood for the trees . You see i stoped hero worshiping a long time ago, so now i can defend and also disagree with the dogmen i looked upon as the best , are they are only humans ,and that i can tell you was the best thing i ever did , as it allowed me to question things that untill then i took as gospel .
I am glad that you dont look to breed faults as a rule and i agree with you sb that these animals are not without defects ,and of course its unavoidable to not breed dogs with some minor defects , but i was talking more particualry about dogs with more severe defects either physicall or in the case of gary hammonds , using deaf dogs , so im certainly not saying that we can never breed dogs with minor defects , that would be an ideal world scenario which we do not have .
Your comment about you being more inclined to read all my lenghty posts if i was discuusing what i had as a breeder myself contributed to the breeding of my own dogs seems a rather strange think to say, as when i come on to the forum to read threads on what might interst me , i dont wonder whether the person posting it is either an expierienced breeder or dogfighter the psot normally tell me that ,but i read the post and i ether agree or disagree or think it has some merits or not depending on how i see things like everyone else does on any given subject. .Just like i would have made that comment to you, i would just reply to your post giving you my opinoin on what you posted in your first post , which was obviuosly meant for me as you mentioned my name and as such i replied to it never using the age old comment that you used , about wanting to know what you have done as some sort of reason to not have to agree with me or accept i have a point which you can agree or disagree with , as under those circumstances only about 5 % of all peoeple who ever post on any subject in these forums be it jacks or any other would not be allowed to say shit , regardless of how much sense it made or not , is that what your saying sb?
I dont have to tell you about me or my dogs or what i breed , just like i dont ask you, i look at what you or anyone else may reply to any given subject , and if i ,like many others think they have a point about that they post a reply to it , i dont need to know if they have been there seen it done and got the t shirt for me to read it, i read it and i dont decide to agree or disagree with its contents on the basis of who posted it or how deep they been , i read it and if it makes sense i say it and if it dont agree i say that to , this isnt a pissing contest sb cos if you been around as long enough you knwo that sometimes the one that can piss the farthest aint always right .Sb i will give your post the same respect i do to all the others i read , by at least reading them and deciding whther i agree or not based on whats written in it and reply to, not reply to it by whether my feeling got hurt cos it says something about a line or dogman i like , thats childish bullshit , so if you dont want to read my posts thats fine but lets not start a pissing contest ok .

As for me misunderstanding you , well im gald , as your original post seemed to be against anyone having an opinion be it right or wrong ,and that we should say nothhing and stick toggether , but as i told you, i wont stick toggehter with someone ideas if i dont agrree with them , thats riddiculous , so i mentioned and hoped that if a subject like ped faking comes up that you would not feel that we should just say nothing , and im glad you dont feel that way on that sb and i will gladly stick toggehter with you on that subject sb.

As for my data entry , what exaclty have you changed , as although i myself being only human i can and do occasionaly get things wrong , i would be interested on what data is incorrect in my peds , thank you.