Crosses vs. Inbred/Linebred bulldogs

[Officially Retired]

Another thing about breeding dogs to remember, when dealing with cross-type dogs, is your first effort to inbreed might be disappointing ... but if you linebreed it back again, you get what you're hoping for

Jack, can you expand on this please?

For example, I made the outcross to Ch Big John and 4 out of 7 pups wound up quitting.

Of those 4 quitters, 2 of them were still decent dogs, Little Big John (who stopped totally exhausted at 1:39) and Siren Girl (who beat a 1xW, then a 4xW, but who then quit in 1:00 on her Championship bid, her 3rd match in 1 year)]. Siren Girl also stopped every dog and bitch on the yard of her previous owner.

Then there were 2 rank curs, Dr. Death and Anthrax, who quit in :12 and :19 on my yard to Poncho Jr. and Duke Nukem, respectively. These two rank curs had looked great on other people's dogs on their first couple of rolls, so I bred Doc back to his mother Screamer, and I bred Anthrax to his half- (and Duke Nukem's full-) sister Athena Red ... a bit prematurely, before having put them with legitimately good dogs. We also bred Anthrax to Poncho Jr.'s sister Cindy.

Anyway, after these dogs quit, I got rid of them ... and sold all their pups cheap ... but, over time, nearly every single one of these pups either won matches or passed severe game tests, one becoming a Champion, another couple winning 100% dead game (literally dying minutes after they stayed with it long enough to win), one beating Stone City in 2:12, another being so devastating and talented it prompted Killer Bees to call me and say, "That is the best dog I have seen in 15 years." Not a single dog from any of these "second-step" breedings back to my core dogs quit (though a few I never heard about after I sold them).

So my point is even the RANKEST of my outcrosses, when bred back to my core game stock, threw Champions, winners, and DG dogs in very high percentages like I'm used to getting.

Therefore, when you make that "killer cross" ... which proves disappointing at the first step (like Zebo/Honeybunch) ... don't be afraid to breed one of those pups back to one side or the other of the pedigree, because there is where the greatness may well be found, in that next step (not the first one)

Jack

[No Quarter Kennel]

Thanks, I appreciate it.
Would it be safe to assume, I'm asking you here, that if you make that "killer cross" and get some actual killers, look to take them back to the side of their gene pool they most resemble then?

I appreciate it and it explains some dogs I've seen. I've seen some great crosses on paper but didn't like one side of the breeding. The dogs would turn out like that BAD SIDE. However, I've seen those dogs taken back to the GOOD side to get 3/4 "X" and 1/4 "Y" and it pans out great.

Thanks Jack

[Officially Retired]

Thanks, I appreciate it.
Would it be safe to assume, I'm asking you here, that if you make that "killer cross" and get some actual killers, look to take them back to the side of their gene pool they most resemble then?

Of course, yes. That would go without saying: if you get fabulous results from the cross, inbreed back to each parent.

What I am actually saying, though, is EVEN if you're disappointed with the cross (since crossing is a gamble) inbreed the best-structured bitch back to the male, and the best-structured male back to the bitch, and *then* your cross may work all the more.

For example, when they bred Gr Ch Zebo ROM to Ch Honeybunch ROM, the results were mediocre nothings ... and they stopped, just dropped what they were doing and forgot about it. What I am saying is if they would have taken one of those DUD females back to Zebo ... and one of the dud males back to Honeybunch they may well have hit a gold mine either way.

I relayed my own real-world example, that worked 3-out-of-3 times. When I bred Doc back to Screamer, and Anthrax back to both Screamer's daughter as well as a Poncho/Mayday bitch, I got 100% successful competitive, winning litters ... no dog matched lost, no dog matched quit, 1 dog made Champion, 1 dog beat SCK in 2:12, 2 dogs proved dead game, all dogs produced winners ... and, again, that was breeding the *worst* pups in the litter ... let alone the best pups in the litter.

Most veteran breeders don't like to outcross much because it's a gamble. You create "more uncertainty" with crossing, whereas with line- and inbreeding (with a common style/goal) you create more certainty. The reason why taking even an average pup back to one of the great parents is because you're now creating an even greater likelihood that you'll get that "fabulous dog" again. Look at a lot of these "world beating" Grand Champions on the other page: Tornado, Titere, Vengeance all have "1/4 out" ... and even Buck is 1/8th Zebo.

So if the straight cross doesn't work, the 3/4, 1/4 cross may well be the recipe. I know it was in the Big John/Screamer breeding.

I appreciate it and it explains some dogs I've seen. I've seen some great crosses on paper but didn't like one side of the breeding. The dogs would turn out like that BAD SIDE. However, I've seen those dogs taken back to the GOOD side to get 3/4 "X" and 1/4 "Y" and it pans out great.
Thanks Jack

In the Zebo/Honeybunch breeding, there was no "bad side"

A person could have taken a male back to Honey, or a bitch back to Zebo, and either would have been a fabulous 3/4, 1/4 effort. I would have definitely fed one

So, I guess what I am trying to say is (for example) Bulldog Anonymous is talking about breeding Gr Ch Titere to Ch Boomslang. It is the typical "breed a Champion to a Grand Champion breeding ... that gets everyone drooling ... but, in reality, breedings like this very rarely produce "more world beaters" but just average, good dogs. They should not let this stop them!

Instead, what I am saying is, they should breed the best bitch back to Titere, and the best male back to Boomslang, and then they may well get their world beater

As another example, there was the "breeding of the decade," when they bred Gr Ch Buck (7xW, ROM) to Gr Ch Queen of Hearts (8xW) ... and do you know what they got from these two aces? AVERAGE DOGS

And they stopped there. They just made random breedings with the game palooka, Abraham's Bull. (Don't know what happened to the rest of the litter.) Again, my point is they should have bred Bull back to Gr Ch Queen of Hearts, and they should have bred his sister back to Gr Ch Buck, but they didn't. Being dog matchers, they didn't know how to breed, they shied away from inbreeding, so they "stopped" going forward with the effort to KEEP that badassness. (At least by going straight back to Buck or Queen.) However, when they made a breeding of Bull to Ch Sunshine (bred very much like The Queen) they got Ch Freak Nasty.

The fact is truly badass dogs are very often HIGHLY inbred/linebred animals (Gr Ch Buck, Gr Ch Zebo, Gr Ch Tornado, Gr Ch Vengeance) ... and very often the first cross isn't the one that produces that great dog, it's the next step, the bringing it back to one key side of the pedigree again, that creates the world-beater.

Just giving something to think about to those looking to breed to "a world beater" ... don't forget to do it again

Wouldn't you like to see 3/4 Buck, 1/4 Queen pups? Or 3/4 Queen, 1/4 Buck. (Or Zebo/Honeybunch?) I know I would.

Jack

[CrazyRed]

This is a great post and I’m mad I’m late to the party, but I did want to comment on a few things I was told about some of the gentlemen’s dogs listed in this post. I know the Zebo x Honeybunch breeding didn’t work like thought, but many of them were also utterly wasted in an accident. There was 1 or 2 I think that were kept and they were bred for a while and old rumors are the male was producing some really good dogs. I don’t think the folks who had them ever had a thought of giving them a shot to earn their keep simply because of the parents.

With Bull is a misunderstanding that he was just some average dog, he was everything besides average in what I was able to see. He was everything between his parents but didn’t carry the mouth that his mother did. He was an extreme finisher, and he was a very powerful dog. He had great style and was a good head dog and when he got you down he finished you. He had about a 7 mouth but was as strong as a dog you would ever touch and smart. He also turned out to be one heck of a producer, he had a few siblings who didn’t get a shot because soon as they hit the hands of others, they were retired before their puppy teeth fail out.

The breeding of Bull x Queen wasn’t done because, 1. time ran out and 2. they had bred Queen and her powerful barnstorming style to mostly Slick dogs who were all winners and had produced a few dogs. The belief was really that she was just a freak of nature and wouldn’t be able to produce. She shocked and did produce but nothing close to what she was which is to be expected. They didn’t want to inbreed on her because at the time, many Boyle’s bred dogs were showing to pull up. You had good % of dogs win but not to many showed to be game, so thought was if you inbreed you going to start getting more culls than dogs worth the feed. After a few offspring showed not to have her mouth but had her strength and some very good heart they started to concentrate more on her offspring. Then Bull beat a damn good bad ass 2x up this way, having an all-out war, then he was retired. He started to get bred and after the first few breeding’s he was showing to be a decent producer. Bull got bred to many of his half-sisters and produced many good dogs. He was a ROM producer and higher. Before I left the area to go East a little bit, I know of 2 yards who had offspring off Bull (full litters) but were registering them as something else because they “didn’t want people to know the recipe” and when Edward was arrested is when the melee really started. It was a young dog off Bull who was 12 months old won he won his first over a CH in the area, by some new jacks and it shocked everybody. Well the guys they beat who are pretty well known, bought the dog off these young guys and changed his ped and won his titles under a brand new pedigree and that was the story for several. Most said they changed it because they didn’t want to be associated with Edward after him being arrested.

The breeding of Bull back to his sisters were the best and when they took daughters off that blood and bred to Bull again were also real good breeding, and Edward also had other dogs off Buck that he bred to Bull and a son of Bucks who was a real good dog and he was bred to some of those daughters to Queen and they produced excellent as well. When they bred those back to Bull the results were unreal. It was Double Buck & Double Queen and the offspring were amazing. Bull really started to produce great when bred to Eli bitches and Boomerang bitches, that’s when they were getting the offspring that resembled and showed off like Buck & Queen. There were 2 famous sons of Bull in the area that were like reincarnations of Queen herself, one mad Ch. and the other only 1 or 2x before Ed was sent away. It’s still some of that blood around, but not like it used to be, some is on the West Coast with another friend and some still in the area but he did produce a lot more than folks would know and without proof of pics or the internet it’s hard to prove it. Those in the area know a lot about what went down, Bull and his offspring had a chance to really get on the map as the % were outstanding but as is life.

[Officially Retired]

Great post CrazyRed. Thanks for clarifying on Bull's ability, but essentially you confirmed my key points: The dogmen who owned the Queen never bred any sons back to her because "they assumed" that she couldn't produce herself.

I don't have too much time, but wanted to say I appreciate your post and thought I'd make just 2 comments:

2. they had bred Queen and her powerful barnstorming style to mostly Slick dogs who were all winners and had produced a few dogs. The belief was really that she was just a freak of nature and wouldn’t be able to produce. She shocked and did produce

Translation: They didn't give Queen a chance to produce herself, because they (like so many others) "assumed" The Queen couldn't reproduce herself, and so they didn't inbreed on The Queen and make the attempt to isolate those genes

The breeding of Bull back to his sisters were the best and when they took daughters off that blood and bred to Bull again were also real good breeding, and Edward also had other dogs off Buck that he bred to Bull and a son of Bucks who was a real good dog and he was bred to some of those daughters to Queen and they produced excellent as well. When they bred those back to Bull the results were unreal. It was Double Buck & Double Queen and the offspring were amazing.

Translation: When they made after-the-fact inbreedings on Bull (who was not the freak, or ace, but a very good dog off of them), some of the genes still inadvertently tightened anyway and demonstrated elevated performance in the pups.

So, like I said, as a breeder of the same line for 25 years, I can tell you that inbreedings WORK if you inbreed on the right dogs.

As good as Bull was, he was neither Buck nor The Queen

Had Bull been bred back to The Queen, I know at least a few of those pups would have been phenomenal.

Had his sister been bred back to Buck, ditto.

My message for the people who breed to Titere is DON'T MAKE THIS MISTAKE and "assume" that inbred Titere pups "won't be good" ... my message is this: if you breed the right daughters back to him, they will be HIS BEST

Jack

[No Quarter Kennel]

Of course, yes. That would go without saying: if you get fabulous results from the cross, inbreed back to each parent.

What I am actually saying, though, is EVEN if you're disappointed with the cross (since crossing is a gamble) inbreed the best-structured bitch back to the male, and the best-structured male back to the bitch, and *then* your cross may work all the more.

For example, when they bred Gr Ch Zebo ROM to Ch Honeybunch ROM, the results were mediocre nothings ... and they stopped, just dropped what they were doing and forgot about it. What I am saying is if they would have taken one of those DUD females back to Zebo ... and one of the dud males back to Honeybunch they may well have hit a gold mine either way.

I relayed my own real-world example, that worked 3-out-of-3 times. When I bred Doc back to Screamer, and Anthrax back to both Screamer's daughter as well as a Poncho/Mayday bitch, I got 100% successful competitive, winning litters ... no dog matched lost, no dog matched quit, 1 dog made Champion, 1 dog beat SCK in 2:12, 2 dogs proved dead game, all dogs produced winners ... and, again, that was breeding the *worst* pups in the litter ... let alone the best pups in the litter.

Most veteran breeders don't like to outcross much because it's a gamble. You create "more uncertainty" with crossing, whereas with line- and inbreeding (with a common style/goal) you create more certainty. The reason why taking even an average pup back to one of the great parents is because you're now creating an even greater likelihood that you'll get that "fabulous dog" again. Look at a lot of these "world beating" Grand Champions on the other page: Tornado, Titere, Vengeance all have "1/4 out" ... and even Buck is 1/8th Zebo.

So if the straight cross doesn't work, the 3/4, 1/4 cross may well be the recipe. I know it was in the Big John/Screamer breeding.





In the Zebo/Honeybunch breeding, there was no "bad side"

A person could have taken a male back to Honey, or a bitch back to Zebo, and either would have been a fabulous 3/4, 1/4 effort. I would have definitely fed one

So, I guess what I am trying to say is (for example) Bulldog Anonymous is talking about breeding Gr Ch Titere to Ch Boomslang. It is the typical "breed a Champion to a Grand Champion breeding ... that gets everyone drooling ... but, in reality, breedings like this very rarely produce "more world beaters" but just average, good dogs. They should not let this stop them!

Instead, what I am saying is, they should breed the best bitch back to Titere, and the best male back to Boomslang, and then they may well get their world beater

As another example, there was the "breeding of the decade," when they bred Gr Ch Buck (7xW, ROM) to Gr Ch Queen of Hearts (8xW) ... and do you know what they got from these two aces? AVERAGE DOGS

And they stopped there. They just made random breedings with the game palooka, Abraham's Bull. (Don't know what happened to the rest of the litter.) Again, my point is they should have bred Bull back to Gr Ch Queen of Hearts, and they should have bred his sister back to Gr Ch Buck, but they didn't. Being dog matchers, they didn't know how to breed, they shied away from inbreeding, so they "stopped" going forward with the effort to KEEP that badassness. (At least by going straight back to Buck or Queen.) However, when they made a breeding of Bull to Ch Sunshine (bred very much like The Queen) they got Ch Freak Nasty.

The fact is truly badass dogs are very often HIGHLY inbred/linebred animals (Gr Ch Buck, Gr Ch Zebo, Gr Ch Tornado, Gr Ch Vengeance) ... and very often the first cross isn't the one that produces that great dog, it's the next step, the bringing it back to one key side of the pedigree again, that creates the world-beater.

Just giving something to think about to those looking to breed to "a world beater" ... don't forget to do it again

Wouldn't you like to see 3/4 Buck, 1/4 Queen pups? Or 3/4 Queen, 1/4 Buck. (Or Zebo/Honeybunch?) I know I would.

Jack

Thanks Jack
This totally disproves any theories by those "hard-core" dogmen who won't allow a bad dog/average/quitter in a pedigree aye?

[Officially Retired]

Thanks Jack
This totally disproves any theories by those "hard-core" dogmen who won't allow a bad dog/average/quitter in a pedigree aye?

Exactly.

Most people "repeat what they hear," like parrots, without any understanding whatsoever about what they're saying.

It's the same thing with inbreeding.

Most people "assume" inbred dogs can't fight ... yet, when put under the microscope, these people have no actual experience inbreeding over time (and no knowledge of how to read a pedigree, apparently) ... because the fact is, inbred dogs make up many (if not the majority) of the winningest, most devastating dogs in the history of the sport.

And certainly the lion's share of the gamest, most dependable dogs too.

Jack

[CrazyRed]

Oh I'm with you I'm a complete fan of Inbred dogs. I prefer Linebred dogs and if there is a cross I like it to come from within the family. I agree I wish they would of bred Bull back to her as well just to preserve some. I think they gave her a chance, she had about 5 or 6 litters, and sadly almost 85% of the offspring off her never got a tooth because folks just wanted to say they owned one. I'm happy they did breed her offspring together and they showed it was strong and that's where those monsters came in. She had a few sons that were badass dogs like her but it was in her daughters and I think more dogmen in that time, focused less on showing the gals. I think it's still common today but back then it was like the male had to prove it where a female could get a pass. I think it was misjudged and they were looking for the badass freaks in the boys, but the badass was in the girls but the producing gene was showing in the boys.

I agree had that breeding took place, I'd bet my left nut, some would of been great and the ones who weren't probably would of been some of the best producers. If I'm not mistaken a daughter off Queen was taken to Buck, and I believe something off that was taken back to a son of Queen that turned out really well. Memory is fading but I recall it but I know even they regret not taking Bull back to Queen. They were trying to keep game, natural winded head dogs on top of her so that way if the pups got her power they also could keep some good air. It was more strategy than saying, F it, i got this freak of a dog here and I'm going to see if inbreeding on her would work. If only we could find that time-machine.

I know you're busy, glad to have seen this convo will check back later to see what else you guys add, this was another great post that I loved. Oh and yes, I would most certainly inbreed on Titere not just because he's a monster, but his ped is loose enough that inbreeding won't hurt you none and if i had a game daughter off him, even if she don't have mouth or whatever to be shown, I'd run her ass back to him so quick I'd slip over the breeding stand lol. That dog is certainly one you want to double up on and breed his half siblings back to and even a daughter back to.

[ragedog10]

Breeding around Titere is the plans here at D.M.D'K we are breeding his heavy redboy daughter back to his litter mate brother we are also breeding a game ass daughter to a bad ass son of his. Then the plans are to take some of the best 50% Titere grands back to him! Just a small inside of a crazy mind with these few key breedings we plan to cap on Titere and also the dogs that made him.
We were the only ones willing to breed to Titere when he was open for stud for all most two years with no takers!!! Go figure.
Noone understood his style and most are used to a barnstorming leg,chest,stifle or your head dog but with Titere showing he could think for himself figure most out in the first 15 and finish most could not understand how could a dog be this dam smart!
We bred him to another 50/50 bitch that is ruff smart as F@#k and game and out a all game litter whom we will breed half bro/sis off her and also a great son back into her this line ine showing wat it takes to put a stamp on history!

[ROCK-MACHINE]

Some of the nicest breeding's to be made with El' Titere were when he was on SM's yard before he was sold to White Diamond Kennel in Central Europe, most are still young but some are just coming into their own and showing well. It would appear though that El' Titere is producing no matter how the bitch is bred.




http://www.strattonpitbull.com/grand...ion-el-titere/