Human aggressive pitbull advice

[Marooda]

There is no such thing as a bad dog only irresponsible breeders and bad owners.[/i]

This is flat out untrue.

I guess you missed the part where Earl Tudor and myself have *both* have raised puppies from early-on to adulthood, the same way we've raised countless other happy loving pups, and these particular pups just grew up to be mankillers. It was simply in their nature.

Just because a dog is shy, or aggressive, doesn't mean it was "abused"; that is nothing but ignorant, tree-hugging propaganda.

The truth is, some dogs (just like some people) are simply genetic pieces of shit. Not every dog wants to be your friend, not every man wants to help little old ladies across the street. Some dogs want to kill you, and some men will invade homes of the elderly, steal from them, and kill them. This is why, when you have deviants like this, you kill them or get rid of them: they simply can't be trusted because they have malice in their hearts as part of their very nature.

I do agree that sometimes these defects can have to do with upbringing, but the simple fact is sometimes these things happen because the dog/man involved is just a defective, angry individual. The intelligent man would only keep a naturally-friendly, loving dog around his family, friends, and children. The fool is the one who leaves a naturally-angry animal alone with his family, friends, and children.

Jack

I am not talking about Genetics, I am talking about one animal, and that animal is the dog that the guy made the post about, I am referring to how he was describing the personality of his dog and based on what he said is the base of my conclusion. I understand you been through a lot with this amazing breed Jack and I respect you and your history and your knowledge, but it does not give you the right to title me a "Tree Hugger" or insinuate I am a "Tree Hugger" or accusing me of using "Tree Hugging Propaganda" this is my opinion and what I think based on my experience and based on talking to many 20 plus year dogmen and also using my common sense.
But Since you are referring to genetics, lets talk about that then, you said that "some dogs are genetic peices of shit" I agree with this, however if a one or two dogs out of a litter is a genetically unsound, the only thing that means to me, is that in that bloodline somewere there was heavy inbreeding and wasn't outcrossed before degeneration which greatly effects future litters. In my opinion, only hybrids dogs produce inconsistency in a litter, and one or two or three of those puppies will be bad apples. That is why I stated only true gamebred APBT will NOT show civil drive.

Let's say that one ABPT was indeed a man killer and wanted to kill a human with pure passion and focus and then wanted to eat the carcass afterwards, that also means something to me as well, that, that dog was MADE to be that way through either man made chemicals that altered the dog's brain housing group or pure abuse and yes that dog needs to be put down.

[Officially Retired]

I am not talking about Genetics, I am talking about one animal, and that animal is the dog that the guy made the post about, I am referring to how he was describing the personality of his dog and based on what he said is the base of my conclusion.

And that one animal is comprised of nothing but its genetics and how it responds to the world around it. I don't think either one of us actually has enough information to form a definitive conclusion about this particular dog, which is why I agreed with the sentiment to produce a video of it. What I said in my post was IF the dog truly is a man-eater, then it should be removed ...

I understand you been through a lot with this amazing breed Jack and I respect you and your history and your knowledge, but it does not give you the right to title me a "Tree Hugger" or insinuate I am a "Tree Hugger" or accusing me of using "Tree Hugging Propaganda"

You are mistaking my meaning. I am not accusing you of being a tree-hugger (I honestly don't know if you are or aren't). I am saying that the idea that "there is no such thing as a bad doggie" is FALSE and is the propaganda of tree huggers, who blame all "doggie problems" on owners or breeders, when the truth is some dogs are just happen to come out as pieces of shit. You are clearly are influenced by this thinking. This doesn't mean you're maliciously spreading propaganda, but you clearly believe this nonsense as the truth. As a man who has raised more dogs than 99.9999% of the human population, I can truthfully tell you some dogs are simply worthless, genetically, through no fault of the breeder or owner: they just came out that way. (However, if a breeder deliberately breeds and perpetuates such dogs, then yes he is at fault. But sometimes such dogs just "come out that way" without being selected for.)

Me? I am one of the last guys to want to put a dog down. I have given away tons of curs to good homes, because I don't like killing dogs. I don't want to breed or perpetuate curs, and my line is renowned for gameness, so I don't want to feed and waste my time with a cur either. So, if a dog of mine doesn't make the grade, yet it is a friendly animal, I don't see why it can't live a good life as a pet ... because I put a lot of time into my dogs to make them socialized. My dogs are by nature very friendly and well-trained, and by the time they're adults they are wonderful all-around companions, and I don't see anything wrong with placing a happy, friendly pit bull in a good home if it doesn't have the traits I need to keep my dogs at the top of the food chain. However, a people-mean dog is the last thing I would ever consider "pet" quality, and I have absolutely no misgivings about culling such a dog. People mean dogs are not "domesticated," by definition, and they can't make it in the wild either, and as such they have no place on this earth.

this is my opinion and what I think based on my experience and based on talking to many 20 plus year dogmen and also using my common sense.

Honestly, I seriously doubt any legitimate 20-year dogman, who deals in combat dogs, agrees with you; so I think you are making this up. Further, I don't have to "talk" to 20-year dogmen, I am one. I don't have to "ask someone what they think" either; I've been there, done that, and raised pups that grew up to be bona-fide manfighters ... and have personally been flat-out attacked by one. Further, of the multiple 20+ year dogmen I do know, not a single one would endorse your belief system.

What you are doing is confusing "your imagination" with common sense;
What I am doing is speaking to you from actual experience.

But Since you are referring to genetics, lets talk about that then, you said that "some dogs are genetic peices of shit" I agree with this, however if a one or two dogs out of a litter is a genetically unsound, the only thing that means to me, is that in that bloodline somewere there was heavy inbreeding and wasn't outcrossed before degeneration which greatly effects future litters.

No disrespect, but you simply have no idea what you're talking about. You are again substituting "your imagination" as to what inbreeding does, for actual experience inbreeding a family of dogs.

"Inbreeding" doesn't cause people-mean dogs, if that was the case every dog I have would be people-mean, as my entire line has been nothing but line-and inbred for over 20 years ... and is based on a family that was line- and inbred for another 20-30 years before that. My dogs are as people-friendly as dogs get, and as a matter of fact many can get along with other dogs too, as they generally to have the sense to know when they're supposed to work and when they're supposed to play.

Now, inbreeding on mean dogs, can lock-in mean traits, if mean dogs are kept in the gene pool, because the entire point of inbreeding is to lock-in traits. However, inbreeding can just as easily lock-in a great temperament too ... which is what my dogs have, and always will have, because I select for it (among other key traits).

In my opinion, only hybrids dogs produce inconsistency in a litter, and one or two or three of those puppies will be bad apples. That is why I stated only true gamebred APBT will NOT show civil drive.

These are just false beliefs that you have created in your imagination. While, yes, hybridizing does mix-up the gene pool ... man-fighting can be retained in the tightest of bloodlines, if it was present in the dogs said line was originally founded upon, and outcrossing can produce perfectly friendly dogs. Aside from the fact you just finished attributing man-killing to inbreeding in your last paragraph, thus directly contradicting what you just finished saying above, neither absolute statement is true. The fact is, there are highly line-/inbred dogs that are both mean and nice, and there are straight crosses that are both mean and nice also. Therefore, mankilling can occur in either breeding style, depending on the presence or absence of this trait in the gene pool.

Again, what I believe you are doing here is just "thinking out loud" without any real understanding of what you're talking about.

Let's say that one ABPT was indeed a man killer and wanted to kill a human with pure passion and focus and then wanted to eat the carcass afterwards, that also means something to me as well, that, that dog was MADE to be that way through either man made chemicals that altered the dog's brain housing group or pure abuse and yes that dog needs to be put down.

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I don't know how else to respond to this other than to say you are simply making up pure nonsense in your imagination, that has absolutely no basis on fact or the real world.

First of all, being fed man-made chemicals has nothing to do with genetics, and secondly, speaking of "20 year dogmen," you just had three 20+ year dogmen (Earl, Evolution, and myself) directly tell you that this man-eating propensity is just "in" some dogs from birth ... which has nothing to do with chemicals ... so it seems to me like you just are completely disregarding actually-competent, actually-experienced opinions and are simply paying no attention to them if they conflict with your (invented) "beliefs."

I appreciate your passion for this subject, Marooda, I honestly do, but your actual experience dealing with either the results of multi-generational breeding principles, or in raising legitimate mankillers, is non-existent. Sometimes it is best just to sit back and read what people who actually have experience in these subjects have to say ... or at least gain the necessary actual experience yourself to ensure that you're qualified to debate these kinds of subject with those who in fact do have the experience.

Jack


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[R2L]

time to get real, even healthy pups are getting culled all the time. let's say you got a litter of 9, 5 start up at 6 months, they other 4 are goners. not even speaking of natural culling. those people never sell pups, dont give away curs. hard selection, minimal waste of time and money.

jack tho, is a man with allot of heart for his dogs, i like that allot. but a man agressive dog who's living with and around people should never be mourned about.

[Officially Retired]

time to get real, even healthy pups are getting culled all the time. let's say you got a litter of 9, 5 start up at 6 months, they other 4 are goners. not even speaking of natural culling. those people never sell pups, dont give away curs. hard selection, minimal waste of time and money.

I understand how such hard selection tactics might become necessary, especially in countries that have laws against owning pit bulls at all. Can't give any away there.

However, the only trouble with selecting for "early starters" is the fact sometimes the later-blooming littermate will actually grow up to be the gamer, better dog ... IF given the chance to bloom at his own pace.

jack tho, is a man with allot of heart for his dogs, i like that allot. but a man agressive dog who's living with and around people should never be mourned about.

Thank you for that, and I agree there is nothing to be sad about by ridding the world of a people-mean dog.

Jack

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[QCKLime]

Jeez, this thread blew up while the site was down....

Anyhow Jack, you and I aren't really at odds in this conversation at all, based on your latter responses. If the original post had come from someone who quite clearly KNEW what a TRUE maneating dog was, and was asking what to do with the one on his yard, the answer would be very clear cut. Everything I got from his post makes it seem that he doesn't have much experience in the way of dogs whatsoever, much less on how to decipher a rambunctious pup from one that is going to grow up and maul someone's child. If he had a puppy that had attacked a family member with the sort of intensity and intent you've mentioned in your replies, surely he would know what to do with a dog such as that without coming to a message board to ask for advice. It's unclear what exactly the pup has done to make him feel that he's HA, and apparently, he isn't HA to the point that this guy wants him gone, which leads me to believe he's a puppy that could be worked with. That still doesn't mean that this is the dog for his family, or that he's the guy to do the work this dog may need.

I've SEEN EVO around dogs, I KNOW he's a skilled dogman in how he handles them and handles himself around dogs. If EVO tells me to watch my ass around a dog, I'm gonna do it, because I know HE knows wtf he's talking about. By the same token, being a person who knows how to handle dogs, in my FULL opinion and experience, lends a big hand to how a dog relates to you -- which is probably why that HA bitch that EVO picked up was a total sweetheart to him, when she had VICIOUSLY attacked every other man she'd EVER come into contact with. Her previous owner once tried to "punk her down" (as workingAPBT mentioned in one of his posts) and she grabbed his leg and shook him off of his feet, he snatched up a shovel to fight her off, and she went straight to attacking that, too. The person matters. EVO's brother could tell me to be wary of a dog, and I'm not going to give it nearly as much thought, like with CH Sam. Apparently he liked to bite people, too, but that dog adored me.

That isn't to say that there aren't simply bad dogs out there, I know that there are -- I just don't agree that there are PUPPIES that far gone -- for instance, DTown told me once about a bitch he had, I think she was Boyles bred, but I can't exactly recall, but according to him, this bitch was BAD NEWS, ended up attacking his daughter and himself, and she had two littermates that turned out exactly the same. Simply bad dogs. And DTown is probably the most impressive human being I've ever seen work with dogs, it's like watching Buck Brannaman work with horses, he just has something. So in rare cases, yes, there are genetically irreparable dogs out there, that have no business being kept around. I just don't think, from this fella's description, that his pup fits that mold.

I'll agree that nine times out of ten, it's the person that needs to work on what they're doing, as opposed to the dog. Dogs respond to us, to everything that we do, they train themselves based off of our actions, and that is true in every case except for the very, very few who are genetically rotten apples who have literally NO desire to work with or please ANY person out there. And I've worked with VARIOUS breeds, with VARYING degrees of aggression, but you can generally tell right off the bat which ones will be okay and which ones won't. I've fostered American Bulldogs that had reached their limit of human attacks before being classified as a "dangerous dog", I've worked with an Akita who attacked a man and opened his stomach from sternum to pelvis (but it was some drunk who'd hopped into his yard), and any number of pit bull/pit bull crosses who would go after you full-frontal if you tried to approach them in a way they deemed threatening. I've had a dozen dogs that couldn't be worked with by anyone BUT me for a month or more, but all but TWO of them eventually came around, and are now in good homes that know about their past troubles (couples who don't want or can't have children, single military men, etc.) And the two I've had to put down were two of the hardest ones, because they both latched onto me almost immediately, and were perfect ANGELS, as long as NO ONE else was around, and no amount of socialization or training helped them get over it. There's always a time to throw in the towel, nine months old, FOR ME, isn't it.

[Officially Retired]

Jeez, this thread blew up while the site was down....
Anyhow Jack, you and I aren't really at odds in this conversation at all, based on your latter responses. If the original post had come from someone who quite clearly KNEW what a TRUE maneating dog was, and was asking what to do with the one on his yard, the answer would be very clear cut. Everything I got from his post makes it seem that he doesn't have much experience in the way of dogs whatsoever, much less on how to decipher a rambunctious pup from one that is going to grow up and maul someone's child. If he had a puppy that had attacked a family member with the sort of intensity and intent you've mentioned in your replies, surely he would know what to do with a dog such as that without coming to a message board to ask for advice. It's unclear what exactly the pup has done to make him feel that he's HA, and apparently, he isn't HA to the point that this guy wants him gone, which leads me to believe he's a puppy that could be worked with. That still doesn't mean that this is the dog for his family, or that he's the guy to do the work this dog may need.
I've SEEN EVO around dogs, I KNOW he's a skilled dogman in how he handles them and handles himself around dogs. If EVO tells me to watch my ass around a dog, I'm gonna do it, because I know HE knows wtf he's talking about. By the same token, being a person who knows how to handle dogs, in my FULL opinion and experience, lends a big hand to how a dog relates to you -- which is probably why that HA bitch that EVO picked up was a total sweetheart to him, when she had VICIOUSLY attacked every other man she'd EVER come into contact with. Her previous owner once tried to "punk her down" (as workingAPBT mentioned in one of his posts) and she grabbed his leg and shook him off of his feet, he snatched up a shovel to fight her off, and she went straight to attacking that, too. The person matters. EVO's brother could tell me to be wary of a dog, and I'm not going to give it nearly as much thought, like with CH Sam. Apparently he liked to bite people, too, but that dog adored me.
That isn't to say that there aren't simply bad dogs out there, I know that there are -- I just don't agree that there are PUPPIES that far gone -- for instance, DTown told me once about a bitch he had, I think she was Boyles bred, but I can't exactly recall, but according to him, this bitch was BAD NEWS, ended up attacking his daughter and himself, and she had two littermates that turned out exactly the same. Simply bad dogs. And DTown is probably the most impressive human being I've ever seen work with dogs, it's like watching Buck Brannaman work with horses, he just has something. So in rare cases, yes, there are genetically irreparable dogs out there, that have no business being kept around. I just don't think, from this fella's description, that his pup fits that mold.
I'll agree that nine times out of ten, it's the person that needs to work on what they're doing, as opposed to the dog. Dogs respond to us, to everything that we do, they train themselves based off of our actions, and that is true in every case except for the very, very few who are genetically rotten apples who have literally NO desire to work with or please ANY person out there. And I've worked with VARIOUS breeds, with VARYING degrees of aggression, but you can generally tell right off the bat which ones will be okay and which ones won't. I've fostered American Bulldogs that had reached their limit of human attacks before being classified as a "dangerous dog",

QCKLime, everything you've said about dogs responding to us is true. The trouble is a HOUSE PET is something that shouldn't require "professional expertise" to always be in control of it "or else."

For example, speaking of a person being good with dogs, I have been asked by 40-50 year dogmen to breed their unruly dogs for them, dogs they themselves couldn't control and get bred. Got it done in minutes, no rape box, no help needed. The Old Man had two of the last of his Robert T dogs that couldn't get bred, but I got it done for him. Music City never could get his Fleetwood dog to tie, I got it tied for him in less than :05.

Regarding people-mean dogs, the Kitana bitch was as savage (and @ 52 lb as big!) as any bitch you want to meet. She took 3-5 men to get bred every time she was bred ... and bit "someone" every time in the process ... including latching onto the forearm of her true owner. And yet, when Kitana was sent to me, I got her out of the crate immediately and bred her by myself. (Much like Evo, I didn't even think she was all that mean, because after a couple of growls she took to me right away.) Dogs just like me and I just like dogs. Admittedly, it was a pain in the arse to breed Kitana, but I got it done after about :30 min of struggling on the side of a hill in the rain, and again I didn't need 3 people to help or a rape box. Kitana did turn on me once, in a full-blown attack when she was with her pups, but I was the only person (other than her original owner) that could be around her--and she latched onto her original owner at one point too. Anyone else, Kitana would flat-out attack on site.

Yet still, even if I put in the work to make Kitana a lap dog with "me" ... is that really the kind of dog that someone wants in their home ... a dog that can ONLY be considered "safe" in professional hands? What happens when I take a quick run to the store, and the old lady and (God forbid) a baby are left behind ... and Kitana gets moody? No thanks!

I've worked with an Akita who attacked a man and opened his stomach from sternum to pelvis (but it was some drunk who'd hopped into his yard), and any number of pit bull/pit bull crosses who would go after you full-frontal if you tried to approach them in a way they deemed threatening. I've had a dozen dogs that couldn't be worked with by anyone BUT me for a month or more, but all but TWO of them eventually came around, and are now in good homes that know about their past troubles (couples who don't want or can't have children, single military men, etc.) And the two I've had to put down were two of the hardest ones, because they both latched onto me almost immediately, and were perfect ANGELS, as long as NO ONE else was around, and no amount of socialization or training helped them get over it.

Exactly, even you have had to kill certain dogs that simply had it "in them" to be dangerous, no amount of training could get it out of them. You may be able to handle dogs well enough on your own to deal with them, but here again do you leave a dog "like that" alone with normal people? Uh ... no.

There's always a time to throw in the towel, nine months old, FOR ME, isn't it.

Actually, I would have the opposite perspective.

From my view, keeping a people mean dog around a family setting ANY LONGER than 9 months becomes progressively more and more dangerous to the family ... the older and older the dog gets. A 5 month old isn't dangerous. A 9 month old dog is getting pretty close to an age where he can hurt and kill someone.

My Icon dog could whip grown match dogs at ll months of age ... hell he got on Phoenix and whipped him at 9 months ... and Tornado won her first match by kill at 14 months of age. So how long do you think it would be "safe" to leave a truly dangerous maneater in the house, with a woman and child, just to "try and see" if this dog can be rehabilitated? Even with an "expert" in the house, this is still terrible judgment, because the "expert" can't be there 24/7. As Evo mentioned, what if the dog gets loose?

I am sorry, but if that "poor doggie" was a threat to my wife and child, it would never have made it to 9 months at my house. There is simply no dog's life that is so valuable as to put my family at risk. It is my view that if I have to work "that hard" to get a pup just to be friendly, then that pup simply is not what I want in an animal. Why should I have to work that hard for some mean pup, when I could spend FAR more quality time simply loving a friendly pup? Why should any friendly pup have to sleep outside, while a mean POS sleeps inside?

It is my opinion that no one should have to "work" at all to make a family house dog friendly; any house dog should be 100% friendly naturally or it has no business being a family house dog.

Jack


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[Abe]

Let's see if I can say this intelligently!
There is millions of truly great apbt in this world, there are millions of great curs out there.
Why on gods green earth would you put any effort to make a threat safe at the risk of your family? It really should be that simple ! Am I wrong

[Abe]

I sent a loved one to read this thread as a defense to our breed, she has only heard the medias input on our dogs so I've been trying to educated her and one for her biggest hang ups is the breed is aggresive so it will one day eat its owner.
I didn't read the thread just read the title and thought a perfect chance to have some vets tell her man biters are not tolerated.
After she reads the thread she comes back to me and says so a man biter is capable of being rehab or put in the hands of an experienced dog man!
Dam felt like a fool. I will never accept a human aggresive dog in any breed and I learned this from owning this breed!

[Officially Retired]

Let's see if I can say this intelligently!
There is millions of truly great apbt in this world, there are millions of great curs out there.
Why on gods green earth would you put any effort to make a threat safe at the risk of your family? It really should be that simple ! Am I wrong

You may not have the best writing style friend ( ), but you were able to say all that needs to be said in the fewest words :ugeek:

[evolutionkennels]

Mr.Marooda,
I couldn't agree with you more Jack. KALO , I understand your view. MArooda, I want to in a very respectful way let you know that the bulk of your knowledge as it pertains to the APBT is wrong. I am also trying to get my head around why someone who doesn't even own an APBT is on a message board that is dedicated strictly to them. As a matter of fact, THIS board is dedicated to sub family of APBT's that have been bred selectively for a specific set of traits, all of which make the end result an APBT that is for the most part bred AWAY from being HA. You really should read up on inbreeding, linebreeding and selective breeding. Some of the things you said are just very hard to digest. Anyway, this post has gone on too long. I'll make it easy.

If Gr.Ch.Buck, Gr.Ch.Mayday, Gr.Ch.Yellow, and Gr.Ch.Machobuck were HA, I would be breeding a different line of dogs. As it is, this line that I breed are SO eager to please and people friendly that as 5-6 week old pups ,they actually puupy fight in a very rough manner competing for you to pet them. To ME, those animals turn out to be the loyal happy go lucky i will be there to the end dogs that we strive to preserve. Any HA at 4 months, 6 months, 9 months is just not worth it. Even if the HA dog makes grand champion, what good is he if he has a high propensity to produce the same? One of which may end up killing your baby, mauling your daughter, or killing someone else . This leads to legislation, and in the long run have a negative impact on ALL of us that are responsible with the breed. Lets stick to our happy go lucky dogs.