INDIAN SONNY'S BOLIO DOGS -- BETTER THAN PATRICK'S?

[Officially Retired]

I never saw 45 go though he wasn't far from me. I know where he was, and I know that most of the people in that area weren't what I'd call top shelf competition. That being said, it doesn't take away from what 45 did. It just would've been nice for him to do into some dogs people thought more of I guess.

I really can't comment on that, except to say I heard Jackson's 45 was with hoodrats, essentially. That was his problem: in the hands of undesirables and he had a freakishly-devastaing mouth. Who wants to go into either?

No, the circumstances of 45's ownership didn't take away from his abilities at all, but it DID take away from the potential of his achievements. Still, I don't care "who" owns a dog ... dogs just don't DOA other dogs on the head, twice in a row, unless they're being rolled with dogs 1/8th their size--or unless they are a freak. That is something an adult can do to a puppy, but seldom to another adult its own size. If a dog DOAs another dog on the head, ONCE, it's pretty much considered a freak occurrence. Again, Andy Capp did it once, in 5 fights, and he was called "The Mouth of the South" ... yet 45 did it twice in a row, at :17 and :19, in front of legit dog dudes, and that is a freakishly-hard mouth by any yardstick.

I have had head dogs for my whole career and never seen that once.
The only "fast DOAs" I have ever seen were throat dogs, cutting off the air.

If you knew where 45 was when he was active, and wanted to see him go into "something you thought more of," you could have always stepped up to the plate yourself

I saw Amboss go, and he was an outstanding dog. I did try to hook my Bullet dog into him before he became champion, but we had just beaten BBC not long before then. I don't know if that factored into it or not personally, but I always find those kind of scenarios interesting when they do happen.

Most people match dogs to win. If BBC didn't think he could beat your Bullet dog, after losing to him, that would be a good reason not to match, lol

MOK thought very highly of Amboss too and I think was in BBC's camp for all of his matches. Yet, he was never 100% sure he would win any of his shows (which is natural). In fact, MOK told me directly, "No matter how good a dog we have, I am always a little nervous going in ... but I would take 45 into any dog alive, or any dog I have seen, and not be nervous at all."

I never got the impression MOK was lying, or exaggerating; I got the impression he was simply that blown away with a once-in-a-lifetime animal ... that (due to his ability + ownership) never was able to realize his potential.

He said 45 was super-fast, extremely strong, and would not get bit ... and could kill you in less than :20 with his head hold. I am quite sure he couldn't have done that 10x in a row, but his sister (Jackson's Ch Violent) made Champion also, on gameness (she beat The Old Man we both know in 1:53). So the gameness was there too, in the sister at least, and 45 was 10x the physical specimen (and had 10x the mouth) as his game, Champion sister.

My point, is if Jackson's 45 was as game as he was BAD (and he had a license to be, bred like he was), he could have been an immortal in the right hands ... and would have been one helluva tough dog to beat in anyone's hands

I also knew MOK. I've known Jr Bush for over 20 years, along with some of his closest friends from showing dogs back in the 60s. Jr always had one of two things. He either had a top quality dog or he had one of the lowest quality dogs you could think to see, but it never bothered Jr. He just loved doing what he did.

A lot of guys are like that, just do dogs to do dogs.

That being said, I also believe that Indian Sonny would've probably made a better quality dog over the years of breeding. But like all who agreed, there would be so many top quality dogs that would've never existed. Even with Pat selling dogs, it's hard to argue with the success he had by breeding those dogs. I've never bought a dog from Pat, and while I've pondered it a time or two, I never really come close to doing so, but I would buy a dog from Indian Sonny if given the chance knowing what I know about his dogs and how he liked his dogs.

Well said.

Given the right type of Eli dog, it can add a lot to your program if you're able to keep it going as needed. Being as the dogs I've bred, at this point, are based around the Eli/Redboy/Honeybunch scenario, it's hard to argue with the way those dogs are headed now with the proper molding and breeding decisions. I would be hard pressed to take any Maloney bred dogs over Jasper for any reason.

I have always thought of Eli dogs as "a cur line" and the Bolio-type dogs as "a game line" ... but I realize how simple-minded this is now. Some of the rankest of curs I have ever seen were "pure Bolio dogs" ...

This is why I posted what I did, to get people to THINK about their own foundations: if the two lines you're mixing can't stand up as individual, pure lines ... then why use them at all?

Without reiterating what I have already said, even though I had a very good win/loss record as a breeder, if I could go back in time and re-do some of my foundational decisions, I would NOT have used lines/individuals who were not themselves capable of standing alone and winning on their own merits.

The more I think about it, the enemy of THE BEST isn't "the bad" ... it is The GOOD.

People tend to stop when they get something "good" ... and thereby never really achieve THE BEST they can do

Some lines are never able to achieve anything; they're simply not competitive nor are they bred to be;
Some lines are only able to achieve 0-2xWs, with an occasional VERY RARE Champion (Clouse, Hemphill, etc.);
Some lines are able to achieve 1-3xWs, with the occasional 5xW;

Most people stop there at that level ... and consider that "the best" they can do.
They're able to compete with any other dogmen, so why not stop there?

What I am talking about is, looking back at history, seeing the BEST dogs of all time, performance-wise, and trying to analyze which repeated and consistent combinations (not flukes) were put together to produce them?

NO ONE can produce all Champions ... or all 5x - 9x winners ... but my point is SOME mixes produce quite a lot of 3x-5xWs ... with (comparatively) frequent 6-8x winners ... as opposed to other combinations ... and these "elite crosses" are almost invariably Eli/Carver crosses of some kind, NOT "Bolio/Clouse" dogs, RBJ dogs, Jeep/Redboy, etc. These are but mid-level achievers, that always seem to lose huge Ch v Ch fights with equal-level Eli/Carver dogs.

Because, almost invariably, it is the Eli- or Eli/Carver combinations of some sort that are the true multi-multi-winners in our sport.

It is a subtle, but perceptible reality that I am just "thinking out loud" about, that's all.

Jack

[FrostyPaws]

If you knew where 45 was when he was active, and wanted to see him go into "something you thought more of," you could have always stepped up to the plate yourself

Rather simple really. I don't fuck with hoodrats, undesirables, etc. I quit doing that years ago simply because it was already a calculated risk doing things with people I knew for years. I certainly wasn't going to risk my livelihood with people I didn't know. I also don't remember the dog's weight now, though I'm sure I did at that point.

Most people match dogs to win. If BBC didn't think he could beat your Bullet dog, after losing to him, that would be a good reason not to match, lol

He didn't lose to Bullet. He lost to Dolly.

I have always thought of Eli dogs as "a cur line" and the Bolio-type dogs as "a game line" ... but I realize how simple-minded this is now. Some of the rankest of curs I have ever seen were "pure Bolio dogs" ...

So did I, and I still do. My foray into that line of dogs did nothing but make that fact even more clear in my mind. Likewise, some of the rankest curs I've seen were Redboy dogs, but given that's what I primarily fed through the years, that's going to happen.

[EWO]

Great topics. I think a lot can be said to the owners of the 7-8-9 and 10 time winners as well. They leaned a little more toward the money end of the win, or the benefits of winning vs. prolonging a certain line or a certain dog. A person who is purely selling dogs can use 2XW or CH as one of the more successful marketing tools out there. CH is a huge accomplishment and to the unknowing monumental.

Since we are thinking out loud I have always wondered why certain people stop with certain dogs, especially people I do not know or have no way of asking, understanding it is none of my frikkin' business in the first place.

No offense nor disrespect intended, but did STP see something that told him Buck did not have 8-9-10 in him? Did Mr. Bass say Molly Bee had done all she could at 8? If the game is about winning and breeders are breeding to make winners, since Bolio was so exceptional, why did he stop at 1? Wouldn't GRCH Honeybunch look better than 4XW CH Honeybunch?

I have spoken of CH. Angel. She won 3, all RIP. We all asked D. to keep going. We were winning money betting with him and I asked. He says, " I put her down 7 times, 3 RIP in the box, 2 RIP within minutes later, 1 picked up before it became the 6th RIP and your bitch quit". I don't see where she has to do anything else for me". D. was a guy truly, wholeheartedly all about the dogs. The money, the ego, or the notoriety meant nothing to him so I seen his point.

EWO

[FrostyPaws]

EWO, who knows really. In Buck's case, he was 6 (I believe) when he beat Sandman. He won that in over 3 hours. It was his hardest match, I'm sure, and it was also when he was passed his prime. While I'm confident that Buck could've won more, at that age and all that mileage, what's the point? Sometimes the risk simply isn't worth the reward, especially when you have a dog like a Buck.

I can comment on one particular dog that stopped at 3 instead of going for more. Ch.Beetlejuice came south from Canada and beat McNasty for his championship. McNasty had beaten Juice's brother, in a show prior to Juice's, in close to three hours. So, after he lost to Juice, he contacted the Canadian again about Juice. The Canadian told him that if he wanted Juice again, he'd have to bring Stan the Man into Canada at 42 lbs, and they could do it. Afterall, Juice had come into the states, why not take Stan to Canada? McNasty declined the offer, and that's why Juice only stopped at 3. I'm sure if he would've won his 4th, he would go out for his 5th, but that's all water under the bridge at this point.

[Black Hand]

I think the truly great competitors that are able to take a dog that far and had the sense to know it, also have the sense to know when it's enough.

[EWO]

For the most part I agree, and no one can really argue once a dog has one five. It is something I have always wondered about.
There is a male up this way, Redboy/RBJ that won two by the time he was 2 1/2, bred early, took a year or so off and then won two more. By the time he won his fourth his first and second litters were winning. The dog was 4 1/2 maybe 5 as a 4XW. They had the dilemma of whether to pursue 5 or even more, or keep his producing. When asked, I really did not have an answer. I could really see both points. EWO

[FrostyPaws]

I can see both points also, and really, it just comes down to what the owner wants to do more than anything else. Me personally, if a dog is a winner, and somewhere along the way starts producing winners regularly, it's time for the dog producing the winners to just stick to producing. If you're wanting to show dogs, and you have a dog producing those type of dogs, what would be the point of showing him again and possibly ruining what you have going at that moment. That is how I look at that type of scenario. In the same vein, if I were to show a dog and I saw the type of gameness I wanted from the dog, I'd not show him again even if he did win.

The amount of wins isn't much to me given most things. If the dog is a destroying, generally bad dog with bad intentions, then yeah, I'm probably going to continue showing that dog until I feel the dog has had enough OR the dog shows the bottom end I'm looking for.

But like you said, and I agree, it's easy to see both points.

[Officially Retired]

I can see both points also, and really, it just comes down to what the owner wants to do more than anything else. Me personally, if a dog is a winner, and somewhere along the way starts producing winners regularly, it's time for the dog producing the winners to just stick to producing.

That is how I always thought, as a breeder.

However, as sort of an historian since concocting this site, and after crunching the numbers, being involved in a DOY selection ... and spending enough time NOT breeding dogs ... I am starting to think that dogs with the potential ought to have that potential realized.

Also, I am starting to pull my head back far enough from "the trees" of my own bloodline to see the forest of all lines ... and what combinations have produced multi-winners more frequently than others.

If you're wanting to show dogs, and you have a dog producing those type of dogs, what would be the point of showing him again and possibly ruining what you have going at that moment. That is how I look at that type of scenario. In the same vein, if I were to show a dog and I saw the type of gameness I wanted from the dog, I'd not show him again even if he did win.

Again, that is how I have always looked at things, from a breeder's standpoint, as well as a "he proved he's a bulldog" standpoint.

Even from a realistic standpoint, a dog that really had to show a lot of gameness is typically shot after that. It's not really fair to make them have to do that again.

The amount of wins isn't much to me given most things. If the dog is a destroying, generally bad dog with bad intentions, then yeah, I'm probably going to continue showing that dog until I feel the dog has had enough OR the dog shows the bottom end I'm looking for.

Again, I have always felt this way to an extent.

As a breeder, I didn't need to have Silverback "win" ... I knew he had winning traits. Winning 1 or 10 wasn't going to make his sperm any better.

However, as mentioned, from the point of view (now) as sort of a record-keeper and historian, I wish I would have given him (Stormbringer, Icon, and some others) the chance to go all the way.

Strictly from the standpoint of breeding, I knew all I needed to know to make effective breeding decisions.

However, regarding the history of the sport, and and REALLY seeing if they could take their place in history, and where they'd stand, I didn't even think about that before.

I sure do now ...

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Great topics. I think a lot can be said to the owners of the 7-8-9 and 10 time winners as well. They leaned a little more toward the money end of the win, or the benefits of winning vs. prolonging a certain line or a certain dog. A person who is purely selling dogs can use 2XW or CH as one of the more successful marketing tools out there. CH is a huge accomplishment and to the unknowing monumental.

This is a great point and rebuttal.

I personally think Stormbringer could have won 10 in the right hands, as not a single dog his size could come close to whipping one side of him (many dogs which later sent out there that won over top dogmen).

Still, my "thinking" Stormbringer could win that many isn't the same as his actually winning that many.

In hindsight, since he went sterile, I should have tried to put him with a good conditioner and just let him do his thing.

However, I did what you mention, tried to breed every bitch I had to him ... and lost everything because he stopped producing pups at 4 years of age

No offense nor disrespect intended, but did STP see something that told him Buck did not have 8-9-10 in him? Did Mr. Bass say Molly Bee had done all she could at 8? If the game is about winning and breeders are breeding to make winners, since Bolio was so exceptional, why did he stop at 1? Wouldn't GRCH Honeybunch look better than 4XW CH Honeybunch?

With Buck, his last one probably took all the steam out him, going 3+ hours.

I wouldn't match any dog after it did that.

I think Molly got stolen, and I think Honeybunch quit and then was "re-named" on the match report

Bolio was exceptional, but I am not sure he was 9xW quality. You can only go 2 hours so many times ...

I have spoken of CH. Angel. She won 3, all RIP. We all asked D. to keep going. We were winning money betting with him and I asked. He says, " I put her down 7 times, 3 RIP in the box, 2 RIP within minutes later, 1 picked up before it became the 6th RIP and your bitch quit". I don't see where she has to do anything else for me". D. was a guy truly, wholeheartedly all about the dogs. The money, the ego, or the notoriety meant nothing to him so I seen his point.
EWO

Again, I totally see this.

However, the flipside is, these are individual examples

There will always be "individual examples" of every bloodline ... dogs that someone says "could have" won 9 ... "if only" ...

The point I am making is, despite THOUSANDS of dogs out there, with EVERY line ... and even with due consideration give to all of the random "if only" individual stories that EVERY line faces ... some of these lines actually produce dogs that STILL manage get actual, living 7-, 8-, and 9xW winners ... quite a few in fact ... while others NEVER DO.

So yeah, many people THINK their dog "might have won" 8-10x ... or have legitimate reasons to retire ... but in some lines real, living 7-9xWs never actually happen ... EVER ... whereas in some lines they do happen, several times.

Which brings us right back to my point

[CrazyRed]

Hey Jack just a quick except, it wasn't Honey that quit and got renamed in match report, it was her son Ch Charlie.. After her last show is when JC bought her to breed her.