Bad Habits

[SteelyDan]

The reason you gave for a dog to fight his chain is just one reason. Ive found some dogs are just destructive to everything they can touch, call it the stress of confinement or whatever. Outlets detour nothing for some. When they didnt have a chain they chewed a pen.

From what i have seen here, these few chain fighters that cant be detoured are more often than not unexceptional or some flat out dont start. So what may have been true with your dogs is not the case with these. Some call these dogs chain curs or chain bad asses. They act real willing until the hammer drops.

If it was the case that my more exceptional dogs were chain fighters on a consistent basis id have to breed far far away from that, which means culling. Why would someone stack the odds against their future dogs by incorporating that into a breeding program?

[Officially Retired]

The reason you gave for a dog to fight his chain is just one reason. Ive found some dogs are just destructive to everything they can touch, call it the stress of confinement or whatever. Outlets detour nothing for some. When they didnt have a chain they chewed a pen.

I've had those too ...

But I still think they're uncommonly driven dogs, usually.

From what i have seen here, these few chain fighters that cant be detoured are more often than not unexceptional or some flat out dont start. So what may have been true with your dogs is not the case with these. Some call these dogs chain curs or chain bad asses. They act real willing until the hammer drops.

Interesting point.

If it was the case that my more exceptional dogs were chain fighters on a consistent basis id have to breed far far away from that, which means culling. Why would someone stack the odds against their future dogs by incorporating that into a breeding program?

I agree it is a pain in the ass for a breeding program. But whoever said raising highly-spirited performance dogs was going to be easy

I've had some ordinary palookas that were hole-diggers, that's for sure, and I've had some amazingly-talented dogs that were pretty good on the chain. Silverback, for example, never chewed a thing: died as an old man with a PERFECT set of cutters.

So there are always exceptions to every rule I suppose ...

Still, your points conceded, I renew my statements that the most ordinary dogs are generally "ordinary" in every other way as well ... and that THE most spirited, intelligent dogs are almost always DEFIANT ASSHOLES in some way ... they refuse to accept being in cages, they refuse to accept anything but what THEY want to do ... and that is part of an Alpha-Dog's make-up IMO

Poncho wouldn't accept being "just another dog on the yard." He would bark all-day, every-day, until I chained him up to the rafters on my PORCH and gave him a couch to lay on. Only when he was in the #1 spot, and right next to the house, would he shut up and lay there content. He could never be in a crate or a cage either: would eat his way out every time. Same thing with being loose in a bedroom. If I left, he would try to eat his way out of the room and come find me.

I couldn't even turn him loose in a backyard ... he would run to the wall and try to jump over and get the dogs on the other side. He knew walls separated properties and that there were DOGS on the other side of them. I could "punish him" a thousand times, but he could care less. He wanted to do what HE wanted to do, and that is all there was to it. It was all EGO and DRIVE and there was no way anyone was going to dominate "his" spirit.

Only when he was sick and dying did he ever mellow out at all ... and then not by much.

Jack

[FrostyPaws]

At one time, I kept chain fighters around, determined to see if all this nonsense was worth the time required to fool with dogs with such barrier issues. Invariably, down to a dog, none of them were ever worth the wait as a mature adult.

One of my stud dogs, who is now gone, seemed to produce at least one chain fighter in each litter. None of them were ever worth a plug nickel, and the last one was 10 months old and not a tooth in his head. Needless to say, he had to go elsewhere. I never found that to be anything remotely like what Jack says in regards to dogs wanting to be with me. Those dogs would barely stop long enough to eat. They weren't interested in me. So while Jack's dogs may have been requesting his attention, the ones I had were never interested in such things.

The best dogs I've had came in all shapes and sizes. Some messed with everything without destroying anything. Some were just chill on their chains. They come in all shapes and sizes, but not one dog I ever raised to maturity that fought the chain ever amounted to anything. So, whenever I see that pop up here and there, those dogs have basically signed their ticket off my yard.

One last thing. I don't necessarily agree that being a defiant asshole is part of an alpha dog's makeup as most of the dogs I've had that were classified as such never messed with anything. I've had the few that did, but they've always been in the minority.

Good topic Dan.

[Officially Retired]

Interesting that you made a study of it Frosty ...

I must admit, the specific characteristic of chain-fighting has never been a problem for me ... but dogs going nuts (running, digging, rock-chewing/root-pulling, barking constantly) ... have always wound up being some of my best.

Some of my very mellow dogs have been talented and game too, but most of my very best have been very animated (and often entertaining) out there on the chain

And, almost down to the last, they were absolutely angels inside the house ... very content to "be with their human" ...

However, about 50% of those ultimately were intolerable inside ... because they'd "go nuts" when I left, inside this time, and (well) I think yall can picture how that looked when I got back

Jack

[S_B]

@ Frosty,
I have to agree at least from my experience. Seems to me those dogs who seek to destroy shit are somewhat anxious or maybe insecure even

@ Jack,

I believe you are putting a human emotion onto an animal when the truth is we really have no clue why they do the things they do, right?

[Officially Retired]

@ Jack,
I believe you are putting a human emotion onto an animal when the truth is we really have no clue why they do the things they do, right?

I totally disagree.
First of all, I never said dogs have "human" emotions; in point of fact dogs have dog emotions.
But they *do* have emotions.

I absolutely don't believe emotions are uniquely human.
In fact, I believe there are plenty of "clues" as to how a dog is feeling emotionally ... and why they do certain things ... unless a person is clueless.

Are you saying you can't tell when a dog is happy? Sad? Pissed off? Guilty? Nervous? Etc.?
Got news for ya: those are emotions

If you can't see these things in a dog, I truly believe you're clueless.
If you can see these things in a dog, then you also believe that basic emotions are NOT uniquely human ... AND that there are, in fact, CLUES EVERYWHERE to be seen as to what's going on in a dog's emotional state.

Jack

[S_B]

@ Jack,

Of course I can recognize basic emotions a dog has. But saying they are destructive because they want to be with you is placing your emotions onto what you believe that dog is feeling.

Not the same as seeing a dog wag his tail when he sees you, or the ones you described above.

[Officially Retired]

@ Jack,
Of course I can recognize basic emotions a dog has. But saying they are destructive because they want to be with you is placing your emotions onto what you believe that dog is feeling.
Not the same as seeing a dog wag his tail when he sees you, or the ones you described above.

You actually are the one saying I said things that I didn't.

First you say I am giving dogs "human" emotions, when I didn't (there's no need as they have dog emotions).

Now you're saying that I believe my conclusion is "the same" as a dog wagging its tail, but I didn't say that either

My conclusion does not have to be "the same" in order to be accurate. If I have a dog that is a barking, hole-digging freak outside ... but is calm and doting when brought inside ... I can form the very realistic deduction that the animal just wanted to be indoors with me.

You can disagree with my conclusion, but I am neither ascribing "my" emotions to the animal, nor do I have "no reason" to conclude what I've concluded. Quite frankly, I have every reason to believe as I do and no reason to believe any differently.

Jack

[S_B]

Are you saying you can't tell when a dog is happy? Sad? Pissed off? Guilty? Nervous? Etc.?
Got news for ya: those are emotions

Jack since this thread isn't about animal emotions per say, we will have to debate this on another thread.

But as far as a dog being driven because they destroy their hardware in pursuit of "freeing" themselves from a chain as you say is, well, kind of silly in my opinion.

And I can't be convinced that an animal who relentlessly chews on hard metal chain links breaking all of their teeth which they need for survival is smart. That is the complete opposite as I see it. (I know dogs can survive without teeth) But in the wild, how many predators are toothless and thriving


I do have very spirited dogs who are very animated and demand my attention though, but without the self destructive behavior.

I just see no point in keeping these self destructive dogs around, it's a waste of money and sanity for me personally. But take no issue with those who enjoy those types of dogs, different strokes for different folks.

S_B

[almonddust]

You kids should play nice or somebody is gonna start crying.