Originally Posted by
evolutionkennels
We can whole heartedly abiut the ironhead black widow cross.
Yep.
Originally Posted by
evolutionkennels
I myself like the boomerang and snooty dogs, that's obvious from the dogs that I own.
Good point. A man's actions speak what he likes. My own Hollingsworth dogs were upgraded by the addition of Ch Hammer, a grandson of Boomerang. This is doubly-true if Ch Hammer's true pedigree is really off of Reuben. That would make my line, essentially, Eli/Carver/Clouse (mostly Carver/Clouse).
I have never wanted to add Eli (or RBJ either), but I tried RBJ through Mayday and it worked very well. I tried RBJ too, through Waccamaw's dogs, and the results were not nearly as good as through Mayday.
This made Sonny mad, hence the bad blood, but those were simply THE FACTS as they pertained to my dogs and my results. I do not have time to worry about anyone's feelings, that is just the way it went.
Some of the Waccamaw crosses WERE good, really good, but overall it did not in any way compare to the Mayday crosses (which had more Hollingsworth blood), and that is just the way it turned out.
Now, those Poncho/Mayday dogs were very consistent in producing dogs "capable of winning" ... in fact, capable of beating the BEST (as they stopped a few Champions and even 2 Grand Champions) ... but, though excellent, none of them was actually able to be a multi-winning 7xW itself.
So there is a difference between being "focking good" ... and being "focking GREAT" 
But hey, there is nothing wrong with having damned good, rock-solid, absolutely consistent dogs capable of winning 1-3/4x against the best dogs in the world 
Nothing wrong with that at all.
But becoming a 6x, 7x, 8x, and 9x winning Grand Champion, who beats multiple Champions, is a whole other level, too, isn't it?
Now, 1 or 2 dogs DOWN FROM my dogs have done this won 6, 9 shows, etc. ... but they ALWAYS had Eli or Chinaman blood in there ... and I have to be honest enough to admit and acknowledge this 
Poncho's sister Ruby was bred to the straight Eli/Carver male Cates' Rambo, and that produced the winningest dog in Japan's history, Okabe's Gr Ch Jigilu (9xW), who beat 4 Champions in a setting like the professional boxing world where they have mandatory challenges of best-to-best.
I did not make that breeding, and I would not have made that breeding.
However, in hindsight, and with the benefit of a database like this, to really see what's going on out there, maybe I should have made more breedings like that
I was always afraid of losing my gameness percentages, but maybe I should have focused more on upgrading in some areas (mouth/destruction).
Maybe I should have made some pure Eli injections of something like Trump's Shotgun into my dogs, and/or the Rambo dog, and taken my bloodline to a whole new level? I don't know.
I am not sorry for anything I have done, as I love my line and am very proud of its consistent ability to win, and its ability to face and beat most any ONE dog you want to put in front of them.
They will be there, do what it takes, take what they have to, dish out what they need to ... and KEEP COMING ... until they WIN ... and they are able to do this 85 out of every 100 shows they have.
But the ability to win 7, 8, or 9 fights has never happened to one of my pure dogs. And the only time it has happened involving my dogs is when bred to an Eli or Chinaman-type dog.
Funny thing is, my dogs have WHIPPED both Eli and Chinaman dogs ... but when my dogs have been combined with them, some of the individuals have achieved a level of success that my "pure dogs" never have.
Anyway, all I am doing here is "thinking out loud" ... TALKING DOGS ... I am not running down my own, or any other, bloodline.
This particular section of the forum is called BLOODLINES AND BREEDING THEORIES ... and the WHOLE PURPOSE of the calculating and quantifying Search Engine and Statistics Page is to plug-in what criteria we're after and come up with some DEFINITE CONCLUSIONS about what is producing what, which combinations work, and which combinations don't ever seem to get "up there" ... to separate FACT from fantasy.
There is no question that RBJ dogs produce winners, Champions, and Grand Champions. Regularly and consistently.
So do my dogs, so do your dogs.
But when we raise the bar, and start looking at Grand Champions of Grand Champions, the simple fact is, if it does not have Eli/Carver in there somewhere, it's NOT going to get super-high stats.
And, again, I don't run that stuff. I have never really tried to add it to my stuff.
But I think I should have ...
Originally Posted by
evolutionkennels
I don't agree with Sonny, but I do like the redboy jocko line, agree about Baracuda, and point out that Hollingsworth himself bred to Yellow.
No one with any intelligence or honesty can agree with Sonny.
And, as much as I have taken it upon myself to give credit to Hollingsworth ... and to preserve his name, his bloodline, and his dogs on into posterity ... he was just a man.
And, as great as that breeding was, and as successful as it has become, historically, it is still NOT the winningest litter of all time.
Further (and more importantly), we are still MEN ... who don't have to mindlessly follow in ANY man's footsteps ... without deviation.
We have the right (and responsibility) to THINK ON OUR OWN ... to take tools (like this database) and USE those tools to come up with some EVEN MORE creative or successful ideas of our own
Originally Posted by
evolutionkennels
Most winningest dogs.... That's a hard conversation, even with facts. Different eras of dogmen have different opinions.
Disagree here.
In this case, "opinions" make no difference. WinningEST = numbers.
And when you're dealing with numbers, the #, the PERCENTAGES, and the FACTS are the only things that matter.
Originally Posted by
evolutionkennels
Colby? Lightner, Tudor? Heinzel?It's a great topic .
It is a great topic, and all of these guys were influential, there's no doubt.
But which dog combos are the most successful IS able to be calculated and quantified BY THIS VERY DATABASE ...
That is why I worked my ass off so long to bring it into existence.
Breeding dogs has always been my passion, along with APBT history.
This is also why it is so important to add the data accurately and precisely.
Is it a perfect system? No.
Are there missing dogs or inaccurate data? Yes.
But it is still THE BEST SYSTEM IN THE WORLD for calculating dog data and quantifying statistics that has ever been put together 
And, you know what? If Sonny, or anyone, knows of a particular dog that isn't in here THEY CAN ADD IT.
There are nearly 40,000 dogs in here now. In 10 years we'll probably have 200,000.
With guys like CYJ and S_B cleaning things up on meaningful dogs, and with most people now entering dogs correctly, this will ultimately be THE place to be to understand what genetic combinations produce what for the serious dogmen.
Here's what it WON'T do:
It won't give someone a good eye for a dog;
It won't make any particular dog "good" or "bad";
It won't make a person a good conditioner/handler.
But it WILL give dogmen and breeders THE BEST POSSIBLE PERSPECTIVE OF THE FOREST ... so they don't let the "little trees" on their yard get in the way of seeing the whole deal
Originally Posted by
evolutionkennels
What role did the E.Crenshaw really play in the cold Ironhead dogs? Only Maurice knows.
Aren't Ed Cranshaw's dogs behind the Steve's White dogs?
Honestly, I highly doubt it. And here's why:
1) those White dogs never really became multi-winning Grand Champions on their own, while Carver/Eli dogs repeatedly do, and
2) those dogs have long bodies and no ability ... while Carver dogs are fast and athletic.
So I personally don't believe it. But, you're right, only Maurice knows for sure.
Jack
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