OTC

[EWO]

Agreed in the progression of the world in which we live.

Just disagree.

Lots of scenarios. If two dogs show up contracted, and both fully prepped (professional, as it has been said) and one dog is not on weight. If the owner chooses to push the weight anyway is this not not 'professional'?, 'should it be deemed OTC'?

It is not that I dislike the answer I just do not see the difference between the two.

Never have, more than likely never will.

EWO

[brasso]

As far as I know, there is nothing in the rules that say a dog has to be put through a keep per se. You just have to show up at weight. Over set weight you pay ff and you can opt to move forward (judgement call); cw you just have to show up.

I think the disconnect here is our individual interpretation of OTC. So here is mine (which may be incorrect): Exactly what is says: "off the chain". No planning, just get together at a moment's notice and may the best one win. No special attention to weight, "about" the same will do.
Do it at a moment's notice= OTC. Set a date= "official" or recognized as "legit" by most.

Seriously, it's pretty much in every book I ever read.

Set weight and date is not OTC to me. See? I even made it rhyme.

[EWO]

You are a poet and don't even know it ( I guess I can rhyme a little too)

I'd call that a roll.

I guess it is perception.

EWO

[BRICKFACE]

As far as I know, there is nothing in the rules that say a dog has to be put through a keep per se. You just have to show up at weight. Over set weight you pay ff and you can opt to move forward (judgement call); cw you just have to show up.

I think the disconnect here is our individual interpretation of OTC. So here is mine (which may be incorrect): Exactly what is says: "off the chain". No planning, just get together at a moment's notice and may the best one win. No special attention to weight, "about" the same will do.
Do it at a moment's notice= OTC. Set a date= "official" or recognized as "legit" by most.

Seriously, it's pretty much in every book I ever read.

Set weight and date is not OTC to me. See? I even made it rhyme.

I'd call that a roll

[Osagedogman2015]

Most good dog men will have better OTC events than most others engaged in "Pro" events.

[Coach]

I have never understood why the OTC has been frowned upon.

What is the difference between two dogs showing up on an agreed upon time and participating in a match with Cajun rules who are conditioned and two that do the same but off the chain?

If the OTC is a roll that was later called an OTC then there is some issue there.

But if two people show up, with a referee and it is conducted the same as a match, for me, there is no real difference.


EWO

Who would do this and why?

If you love your dog and believe it's worth proving one way or the other that it's a legit animal, then why would you do this?

You are not giving your dog the best opportunity nor are you facing as good an opponent thus lessening the legitimacy of the win if you were to pull it off.

Supposed to do everything you can to make your dog the best and to do that, it should be in tip top shape, be at it's best weight, on the best feed and come in healthy, fresh, strong and ready vs the same. Otherwise, it just ain't legit.

JMHO

[Coach]

Explain.

Why is one more pro than the other?

Two people show up with two dogs. Both dogs are of equal weight, or it is accepted that one weights more than the other, there is a referee and the rules are in place.

Even if the dogs are worked people come in over or under all the time and do the dogs anyway, pushing the weight or getting the weight, and still doing the dogs.

The only difference would be the level of the conditioning.

And if we delve deeper into the subject:

If you are a world class conditioner and a world class handler and when we get tot he show you out handle me, and your dog has more gas int he tank and in turn you win....

does that diminish from the accomplishment of your dog? you?

No it does not.

The set up has been the same since the beginning, you need a weight and a date. Both are agreed upon and then it is a go.

EWO

If there's a date, you are running a serious risk of taking yours OTC and the other guy showing up with an conditioned dog. And again, YOUR DOG is at a disadvantage.

That's the whole point to doing it RIGHT. If a date is set and agreed upon, that takes out the BS of someone "setting" someone up with and OTC situation while they been working their dog for about 6 weeks.

Here you go....I been working my dog for 4 to 8 weeks. I call you out for an OTC and your dog really is just ON TC. Let's do it 2 weeks from today. Sound good?

You keep debating from a standpoint the MFr's in this line of business can be trusted....LOL

[Coach]

Most good dog men will have better OTC events than most others engaged in "Pro" events.

LOL....you are right
And let that sink in to some folks

[Coach]

EWO - doesn't look like anyone is going to change your mind, but let's back up in time and look at how this sport evolved.

It quite simply evolved by someone in the same neighborhood claiming his dog can whoop any dog in that neighborhood. Some accepts that challenge. They get together and find out. They didn't care about weight, condition or anything of the sort. It was the original OTC situation. Well, as humans do, they start looking for an advantage and realize, given more time and provided a few tweaks here and there, their dog may have an advantage over another dog is certain things are adhered to. This scenario goes back and forth over time and the sport begins to evolved. Size matters, rest, diet, exercise and all of these other things that make a difference are understood by the process of "pressure" to win. Eventually, we get to the Cajun Rules to level the playing field.

You are hung up on one particular point and that is your example of making weight or not and collecting FF. Lots of guys collect and go home and the other side just learned this dude is serious and they won't BS him on weight again, or they will avoid him. WIN WIN for the guy that collected AND HIS DOG.

I'm with Brasso - if there's a date and weight - it's not OTC. His definition is exactly the same as mine.

A roll is a hands on situation that is to benefit the student and rules are not adhered to in a strict manner b/c the student has to learn

[EWO]

If it is a roll and a schooling session then it is just that, a roll/schooling.

If two people agree to do their dogs and there is a referee and it is conducted under a set of rules, I do not see the difference in what the gathering is called, a contract or an OTC.

If two people show up and one is on weight and one is not, there is then a decision to be made. The smart money says collect the forfeit and drive away. That does not happen very often, unless them missed weight is a huge amount, 2-3 pounds over. Less than a pound most go ahead with the show. Most collect the forfeit and do the dogs anyway.

So if a dog is worked for a show, and one misses weight and the show goes on, this is a contract match.

If two people agree to do their dogs, and the weights are not the same, and they made the call on short notice, this is an OTC, which is frowned upon.

And I agree sometimes OTC is not actually OTC. Some will work their dogs prior, and I agree on the weeks of work mentioned above, and then making the call with more work than the next guy. I get all that.

Maybe the disconnect I have is that people think they can be set up in these dogs. That is another thing I have trouble understanding on one can feel he/she can be set up in these dogs.

EWO