Conditioning only on a Raw feed diet or a Kibble with Supplement added diet?

[EWO]

This is another great topic. When I first came along the dog food was so cheap it still had feathers in the bad here and there.

Raw food was used for fish bait back then. Things have changed tremendously over the years but I doubt the dogs have evolved to the point they could not be successful on the diets of yesteryear.

Feeding for performance is one of the most interesting topics about these dogs. There are tons of way to get there and I only know a few and those too have changed a ton since I got started.

EWO

[Milehighmisfit]

Frosty,
Good question, but most of there calories are coming from kibble and have been using the raw food to round things out I guess. Basically they always get kibble, rf-1 and oil. Once or twice a week they will get an egg lightly boiled, once or twice a week they will get some chicken (sometimes grocery store bought chicken, or whole ground chicken from hare-today.com). Maybe eventually I will switch over entirely. I have done the full raw thing before and it seemed to work well,definitely smaller poops that was for sure.

[BSK]

I'm getting ready to start shaping one in a couple of days. She is currently eating Orien 6 Fish. But I'm going to wean her into raw to do a raw keep. I will be using chicken backs, beef fat, RF-1,Lixotinic, Bee Pollen,mustard greens & kales,yogurt,joint flex & a muscle fortifier. My questions are : since I have the RF-1 & Lixotinic are the greens & muscle fortifier & joint flex needed? This is my 1st time using RF-1. ALL HELP WILL BE GREATLY APPRECIATED!

[CYJ]

Ditto BSK. I would reduce your dog in the prekeep with the amount of kibble feed, dog has been eating for good health maintenance. In what ever part of the country you live in has a factor also. Assuming this dog is active and not being overfed. In other words not hog fat on the chain. If dog is hog fat can take up to twelve weeks to slowly work to best show weight.

Now here is where I differ IMHO on feeding in the prekeep. Assuming again you have slowly prekeeped this dog before and know it's best show weight. We liked to work a dog depending on the size of the dog. To work the dog at 1/2 to 1 pound below it's over all best show weight. You will see just slightly the top of the hip bones showing and about all ribs showing. You are not into the serious hard work yet, so do mostly easy aerobic trotting and hand walking. Reason for this is to insure all the gut fat is worked out of the dog. This is extra important if you are showing your dog in hot weather. There can be no or very little gut fat in a dog being shown in hot weather.

One other thing on a hot weather show dog. The dog should hopefully be big boned and rangy built with lots of gameness. Heat and lack of air will stop a show dog quicker than anything else. Not a bad idea to breed dogs for the bigger bone structure and rangy built. These type built dogs are hard to whip in any dog show season. LOL

Back on subject. Any of those proven supplements while also putting the dog through it's worming schedule. Add them at a third amount in first half of pre keep. Then full recommended dosage (only) in last half of pre keep. The greens should be canned unsalted greens. Add about three fingers and a thumb full at a time. The greens give the dog enough roughage to keep the bowels regulated and some vitamin K benefits.

You only add the Chicken meat to the keep when you start the serious work. We started out with one chicken back and chicken neck with about a cup of the broth. The kibble amount used in the prekeep will remain the same through the whole keep. Dog losing weight,add another back and neck. Most of our dogs were little dogs,never went past two necks and backs. Make sure to use the skin and all the fat. Do not remove.

The kibble you are using. If this dog show is in the heat. If this same kibble comes in a lower protein and fat content use that kibble formula in hot weather. The higher protein/fat formula can be used in the cold winter months. The higher protein count can create heat in the dog's body. Is why sled dog men use a lot of high protein/high fat source from Salmon fish etc. So lower protein/fat kibble formulas for hot weather dog shows. Long as the kibble has a good quality chicken based feed formula. The dog will get all the needed natural bone meal/meat protein and easier digested fat from the chicken necks/chicken backs.

Some like to feed two solid meals a day. IMHO I disagree due to one can not accurately know the dogs true weight on any given day. Nothing wrong with some good quality fluids 12 hours from the main PM work out. This should be done in the pre keep and the main keep. Start out with eight ounces and check the skin everyday to see how hydrated your dog is. IMHO any AM work should be just hand walking light trotting. The PM is for the serious work.

Sorry if this was as some say. To much information. LOL I probably am preaching to the choir. LOL You and many of these other dog men have learned better and newer ways to skin that cat. I am coming from a time line of the 70's and the 80's. Cheers

[BSK]

Thanks Sir. But my questions were : since I'm using RF-1 do I need I still need the horse muscle fortifier & MSM & since I'm using Lixotinic do I still need the greens? She is eating Orien 6 fish but Im going to wean her to all raw (chicken backs & beef fat).

[EWO]

The RF-1 will be sufficient. The lixotonic is good but I have only used it a couple of times. I'm not sold, but can't say it is good or bad. I would say 'with moderation'.

Any dog food with the protein source as fish will be suspect. It is a high density protein and although good for the dog it takes a lot of energy to convert it to fuel/used for recovery. I have seen several dogs run hot when the fish based protein was added during hard work. The chicken and chicken fat is much more easily assimilated by the dog.

Gets into the Kreb's cycle and all that science stuff. LOL. But every protein is not the same. Just like all fats are not the same. A fish oil fat is a lot different than chicken fat and/or beef fat.

The thing about horse stuff it is based on a 1000-1200 pound horse. With powders it can be really hard to break it down to a 40lb dog and still be accurate. Most are successful when they are used every third day and if one misses it will be missing a little light.

One thing about RF-1 and Lixotonic and Red Cell is it helps if the bloodwork is checked before, during and at the end of the keep. Most do not have that option. An old school way is to watch the piss. It should be mostly clear. If the supplements are ramped up and the urine darkens, it is more of a load on the body to discharge than any help being given. Lighten up on the additives.

EWO

Thanks Sir. But my questions were : since I'm using RF-1 do I need I still need the horse muscle fortifier & MSM & since I'm using Lixotinic do I still need the greens? She is eating Orien 6 fish but Im going to wean her to all raw (chicken backs & beef fat).

[brokeback]

Great post as always, CYJ.

[CYJ]

BSK you will need the greens to help keep enough bulk in the dogs diet to move the stool through the bowels to avoid any constipation. No matter what type feed keep one uses. There has to be something in the total feed mixture to add bulk for proper fluid absorption and stool elimination. Greens added will not hurt any sort of feed keep being used.

Greens will be your best over all choice for natural fiber. One of the reasons the older feed keeps kept some kibble was to insure good bowel movement and allowing the dog to feel like it has eaten a full meal.

Eliminating the kibble in a hot weather keep is not a bad idea, should help the dog maintain a leaner weight with no access fat in the gut etc. areas. If what you plan to do and have already seen excellent results in another show or prekeep. Go for it. Long as your dog stays bright eyed/glossy skin/blood red gums/no dehydration/kicking up the dirt after a no straining solid bowel movement. You are good to go.

Will have to look up the info on that Lixotinic product. That is a new product I have not read about. There is nothing wrong with good quality supplement products used in moderation. But still no substitute for good solid food. Just like any hard working human. That dog has got to feel like it has eaten a solid meal of life sustaining food. If not, will become ravenous and even start eating it's own stool etc. Right in front of your eyes. LOL

If I am not giving BSK the exact right answers he is asking. Please, the dog persons with more newer keep knowlege, chime in and help this fellow compadre out. I always believed any well intentioned dog man should be given a fair shake in the game. Helps the best over dogs to win and used for future breeding to improve the sport. Cheers

[S_B]

I always believed any well intentioned dog man should be given a fair shake in the game. Helps the best over dogs to win and used for future breeding to improve the sport. Cheers

CYJ,

I've never once thought you were steering anyone wrong in your advice. You may think your information is "outdated" I see it as you must have been before your time with feed and vitamin knowledge.

S_B

[EWO]

The kicker is that the dogs have not evolved to the point that nutritional information from the 70's and 80's will not work.

I think some go a little far with supplementation. The ingredients are great but the dog does not get that full feeling and in turn does not digest as well. The greens and/or the use of kibble help keep the gut/digestive tract working. This is a must if the particular keep allows the dog to stay outside.

In the colder months, a keep diet less kibble or greens will make maintaining weight a little more difficult. On straight RAW you will see a little more swing in the weight AM to PM to AM. For no better analogy the raw is a one pass, great assimilation and out. Leaving the gut, stomach and tract close to empty. In turn the dog will shiver its own bodyweight in the night.
Even if you up the raw food amount they will do a great job of assimilating.

The greens and/or kibble will, for lack of a better analogy, will hang around a little longer. So during the night the dog will continue to digest. Providing body warmth in the cold.

The end result is basically the same, the dog will empty in the morning, the raw dog will have a smaller turd and the green/kibble will be a bigger turd.

And with all that said, the next guy will go a different route and that way will be the 'right way'.

EWO

CYJ,

I've never once thought you were steering anyone wrong in your advice. You may think your information is "outdated" I see it as you must have been before your time with feed and vitamin knowledge.

S_B