Fellas I need a little help?

[Officially Retired]

Cool read Jack!

[Thunder98]

Most definitely a great read Jack. Gives a man plenty to think about. Glad I subscribed.

[Officially Retired]

[ceasar]

That sounds like a decent plan.

Again, the thing to keep in mind is TRAITS ... and they do NOT all have to be "all" excellent

Another thing to keep in mind is an OPEN mind and a KEEN eye, learning to break every trait down into components.

Let me give you an example:

I got my Coca Cola bitch as a $600 cull, because she was deemed "not match worthy." That was one man's opinion.
This man rolled Coca Cola with a Champion bitch, who totally controlled Coca Cola, who got SUPER-tired, super-fast.
Coca Cola was deemed to have "no ability" and "no air" ... but seemed VERY game.
This man was only interested in "match dogs" and had no time for "mere game dogs."

So I paid $600 to get this cull bitch on my yard.
And here is where "opinions differ"

What this guy forgot to mention is that Coca Cola was a 26 lb bitch, and the Champion he put on her was a 31
That means the tiny Coca Cola was SPOTTING A CHAMPION 5-LB OF WEIGHT in her "evaluation" that he "forgot to factor-in" to this equation
Another thing he failed to factor-in was the fact Coca Cola drove that big bitch all over the pit and never took a backward step

All this dude could see was "Coca Cola got dominated" ... but he failed to factor-in the weight ... and he failed to appreciate the fact COCA COLA WAS STILL THE STRONGER BITCH

When I got this bitch, I fed her for a month or so, and got her used to me, and then rolled her with Missy. Missy was a 29-30 to Coca Cola's 25-26. I rolled the 2 bitches together, and had to pick up Coca Cola in :06, because Missy had fractured Coca Cola's muzzle in two places, as well as her skull between the eyes.

Although it was a rout for Missy, two things remain true:

1. Missy had the hardest mouth of any bitch I have ever owned; and
2. Coca Cola, AGAIN, was driving Missy all over the pit, never took a backward step, and actually got into Missy's guts once, trying to kill her

So while one man may say, "Damn, that little bitch had to be rescued in only 6 minutes," another man might say, "Damn, THAT LITTLE BITCH DROVE THAT FUCKING ACE FACE DOG ALL OVER THE PIT, SAT HER DOWN AND GOT IN HER GUTS ... AND NEVER MISSED A BEAT ... EVEN WITH HER FACE FRACTURED IN 3 PLACES ... WHILE SPOTTING 4 LB OF WEIGHT."

And the thing about it is: Both statements are true

So, remember this above all else: HOW you evaluate, and WHAT YOU SEE (or fail to see) will determine the success (or failure) of your selection and breeding decisions

One man made the decision to cull Coca Cola as "unworthy" ... because (IMO) he failed to calculate some serious "intangibles" into his decision making.
Another man (me) decided Coca Cola had A+++ BODY STRENGTH ... A+++ INTENSITY ... A+++ DESIRE TO WIN/FINISH ... but needed better air and not to be so one-dimensional.

So I bred Coca Cola to Bull, to Poncho, and to her half-brother Charlie Boy ... in order to 1) blend the staying power of Bull with the relentless drive of Coki; (2) do the same thing with Poncho and Coki, but add brains too; and 3) to double-up on the relentless intensity of BOTH Coca Cola and her 1/2-brother Charlie Boy ... all the while staying within the family

My results?

BULL

• Vise-Grip's Red Sonja: Only 1 pup came from this breeding, Red Sonja, a clone of her mama (just lighter) who was a relentless powerhouse, game to the core, and is behind some of the very best dogs (and most consistent gameness) I have ever produced in 25 years (Thunder, Screamer, Razor POR, Duke Nukem, Jezebel);

PONCHO

• Vise-Grip's Ch Stormbringer: the baddest dog I have ever owned in 25 years breeding dogs.
• Carl Crews' Warlock, POR, ROM: one of the top 2 producers I have ever bred in 25 years breeding dogs.

CHARLIE BOY

• Vise-Grip's Bandana: One of the most intense, ferocious bitches I have ever bred, dam to Ch Vengence (defeater of Champions / Scratchback Cover Dog), granddam to Ch Tulipa (4xW, 4x BIS), as well as dam to Bananarama POR.

Remember, all of these great dogs came out of a $600 cull "that couldn't win a match."

The moral of this little story is 1) NEVER listen to "what other people say" ... MAKE YOUR OWN DECISIONS ... and 2) REALLY PAY ATTENTION TO EVERYTHING ... weight, "intangibles," EVERYTHING ... so you don't jump to "fast conclusions" and thereby fail to take EVERYTHING into account.

And 3) LOOK FOR **EXCELLENCE** AT SOMETHING

Coca Cola may have had "some faults": air, structure, some abnormalities in her teeth, didn't pace herself, etc.

But she had A BODY STRENGTH, INTENSITY, and DESIRE TO FINISH that was OUT OF THIS WORLD ... and I bred her 3x ... to supplement her weaknesses twice (to Bull and to Poncho) as well as to preserve and maximize her strengths once (to Charlie Boy).

And the results speak for themselves ... all from a "cull" that "someone else" didn't think was worth his time

I hope this longwinded tirade gets you TO THINK ...

Don't make excuses, true.
Don't over-exaggerate and "see things" that AREN'T there ...
But also, don't overlook truly great traits, that really are there, but are being hidden (either through weight disparity, other weaknesses, etc.).

Hope this all made sense

Jack

This is one of the best post, I have seen on any forum in a very long time.
very insightful,well worth the $30 bucks to join.
should be common sense, but sometime you can get caught up in the action, and miss the little things.

[CYJ]

This is a old thread. Would like too IMHO give my thoughts. First I whole heartily agree with Ca. Jack. His insight is very to the point. What I wish to bring out is using the information put in the 14 generation search engine on your dog's pedigree. See what dog pops up predominate in the third generation. Look at the predominate over all dog with the highest numbers. That all these dogs were bred down from.

This female dog of yours shows a strong Bolio influence. Bolio comes up in the third generation listing at 25.5% influence. All of the main dogs in the overall pedigree were bred down from Tudor's Dibo 1026 times at 9.8%.

Now this added pedigree feature could be used to help breed dogs with more pretty pedigree papers. This is not what Ca Jack designed this search engine feature to be used for. Use CA Jack's wisdom of finding a deep game well built dog with a known strong Bolio influence. The stud dog you decide to bred to if your bitch checks out. Should have the traits you wish to have and hopefully same traits as your bitch dog.

Bolio was a famous and devastating head dog. I would only bred from Bolio dogs that have those same strong traits along with all the other traits mentioned by Jack.

With all that Ca Jack has said and my opinions. Keeping a family of game dogs intact. Is a long,lonely, drawn out road to walk down. The Factors that will always work against you is Father Time,enough money when needed, and Murphy's Law. Cheers

[Thunder98]

Thanks for the advice CYJ...