What did the lightner dogs and Colby dogs help produce?

[CYJ]

Those who years back, bought up all those soft and hard bound books of Pete Sparks and the older blood lines magazines. Will find all this info and much more. About two years ago, I spoke with one of the personnel of the Blood lines magazine. She told me at that time they still had some of the older printed blood lines magazines of the 50's and 60's that still could be bought.

I had all of the Spark's books and about all of the old blood lines magazines from back to the late 40's. Was interesting to read articles written by Tudor/Saddler/Heinzl and other old/ old timer dog men. I gave all of my books etc and dog papers to V.J. He said that really nice red hard bound book Spark's had on the late 60's and 70's dogs was stolen from him. Cheers

[Officially Retired]

Tombstone bolio dogs

How would I compare my Tombstone/Bolio dogs to Evo's?

I have never seen any of Evo's dogs go, let alone enough to form an opinion, but their win record speaks for itself, as does mine.

It's not like the Waccamaw dogs, where I have personally seen several of those dogs go, and MOST were utter pieces of shit, with one (at best) average plug "with mouth" ...

So I don't have any experience actually seeing Evo's dogs go.

Genetically, Evo has RBJ dogs in all his dogs, whereas mine are more pure Bolio/Carver.

I actually admire Evo's bloodline and longstanding adherence to his preferred breeding combinations.

Realistically, all egos aside, at even weight, there are some of his dogs that would whip some of mine, and some of my dogs that would whip some of his.

Historically-speaking, there has never been a bloodline that has whipped more individuals of my line than mine has whipped individuals of that line, if they've faced-off 3 or more times. Never.

There are a few lines that have broken even, but the fact is most have lost every time (or most of the time) they've faced mine.

The closest thing, genetically, to Evo's dogs that mine have faced would be dogs from CML. There have been 3 Vise-Grip dogs that have faced 3 CML dogs, with the results being 2 VG wins, 1 CML win.

One of CML's dogs lost game (his personally), the other quit (owned by Openhouse).

Meanwhile my dogs won 2 out of 3. The 1 VG dog that lost (a son of Diamond Girl named Full Force Combine's Broad Axe) was matched with zero experience into Openhous'e Ch Waycan, who was going for #4. It went :53, I believe, and Broad Axe was picked up exceptionally game, and Waycan couldn't be matched again.

The other two times my dogs won.
Eloheem beat CML directly, I think, but CML's dog was extremely game also (I don't remember how either was bred).
The other time, we faced Openhouse again, and his Tito Trinidad was much bigger, but still quit in :52 to my Ch Vengence.

The "Overall" Record of my dogs versus CML's RBJ/BT dogs?

Regarding straight wins?
My dogs won 67% of the time.
Those dogs won 33% of the time.

Regarding winning OR losing game?
My dogs had a 100% "win or lose game" quotient (0% quit).
Those dogs had a 67% "win or lose game" quotient (33% quit).

So, although Evo's are bred similarly to CML's, I can't say for sure how mine would do against his, but I am sure it would depend on the dogs used ...

Jack

[FrostyPaws]

I've seen 2 quality Colby dogs. Both of them were off Colby's Otis out of littermate sisters, and this was back in the 90s. One went over an hour in a check with a son of Ch.Tramp, and I watched the cousin, off Otis, snatch the teeth out and about a ruin a quality champion dog in about 45 minutes. I saw some pretty decent dogs off both of those males, but as far as I know, they were never bred back to any quality Colby bitches.

[CYJ]

I talked to V.J. last night. He told me he did go and check out those Colby dogs that were close by him. Said he did not like what he saw. That some of the locals had tried some out. Were not up to scratch compared to the more popular bloodlines being used. So there may be a good one here and there. From so many years of non competition, it appears bred on name only to long. The Colby line has seen it's heyday. Best use what we have today and preserve the purer tested lines we have.

I still feel after chatting on line with some dog men that have had some of the best Vise Grip dogs. This still is a excellent line to preserve or cross with, if someone feels they need to add some new blood to their dogs. I see a lot of Pit Bull in such smaller packages. Was looking at a black & white bitch that I believe is now deceased, bred off a Vise Grip dog that was killed by two R. Ridgeback hounds. Bitch Looks like the old timey Tudor/Carver Black Widow blend. Stated weight was only 34 pounds. Without knowing and just looking at the picture. Could have passed for a 42 to 44 pound dog. Just, IMHO.

I reckon, I just like well built smaller old time Carver and some of the Mayfield blended dogs. Even though later in my last years in the dogs. I was trying to breed up bigger dogs since most of the lines had gotten bigger on the average. Mostly from the Paladin crosses and the Jocko-Red Boy crosses and Bully Son - Eli dogs. To each his own. Cheers

[Officially Retired]

I used to own a bitch named Nowell's Creeper, who was down from the Otis dog Frosty speaks of. She was given to me by Conan, but after awhile I gave her away myself, because she was thin-boned and very shy.

Never did anything with her, so I can't comment on her quality ultimately. There are a lot of supposed Champions in her ancestry, and I have no way to know if this is true (or at "what level" these supposed Champions competed at).

One thing I pride myself on, however, is the ability to SEE the athleticism, etc. in a dog, just by the way it moves. It was my opinion that Creeper, in addition to being shy, was a gangly and not very athletic animal. Also, her skin and bones were very thin, and she simply did not have the rugged durability that my dogs had.

In addition to extreme gameness, another reason my dogs are able to repeatedly and consistently go and ultimately win in 1.5 to 3 hour-long fights is because they are TOUGH (thick bones, thick hide). At the top of the food chain, you need extreme athleticism, supported by thick bones, and protected by a thick hide ... all driven by extreme gameness ... if you expect to win a long, drawn out fight. After observing the shy, gangly, thin-boned, thin-skinned Creeper for a few months, I just made the decision to give her away ... as there was no way in hell she belonged next to my other bulldogs.

Unfair decision? Premature?

Possibly.

But I have have been able to keep the same family of dogs in the winner's circle, for more than 2 decades, because I know an athlete when I see one ... right away when they're young ... and I didn't see what I like to see in that particular animal.

Jack

[wrknapbt]

I used to own a bitch named Nowell's Creeper, who was down from the Otis dog Frosty speaks of. She was given to me by Conan, but after awhile I gave her away myself, because she was thin-boned and very shy.

Never did anything with her, so I can't comment on her quality ultimately. There are a lot of supposed Champions in her ancestry, and I have no way to know if this is true (or at "what level" these supposed Champions competed at).

One thing I pride myself on, however, is the ability to SEE the athleticism, etc. in a dog, just by the way it moves. It was my opinion that Creeper, in addition to being shy, was a gangly and not very athletic animal. Also, her skin and bones were very thin, and she simply did not have the rugged durability that my dogs had.

In addition to extreme gameness, another reason my dogs are able to repeatedly and consistently go and ultimately win in 1.5 to 3 hour-long fights is because they are TOUGH (thick bones, thick hide). At the top of the food chain, you need extreme athleticism, supported by thick bones, and protected by a thick hide ... all driven by extreme gameness ... if you expect to win a long, drawn out fight. After observing the shy, gangly, thin-boned, thin-skinned Creeper for a few months, I just made the decision to give her away ... as there was no way in hell she belonged next to my other bulldogs.

Unfair decision? Premature?

Possibly.

But I have have been able to keep the same family of dogs in the winner's circle, for more than 2 decades, because I know an athlete when I see one ... right away when they're young ... and I didn't see what I like to see in that particular animal.

Jack

Nope not Unfair or Premature. I myself have a hard time feeding a dog that I don't like looking at. I'm holding one for a friend right now and the only reason she is still here is because I like her build and looks and her attitude is great.

[Officially Retired]

Nope not Unfair or Premature. I myself have a hard time feeding a dog that I don't like looking at. I'm holding one for a friend right now and the only reason she is still here is because I like her build and looks and her attitude is great.

[Smokey]

I used to own a bitch named Nowell's Creeper, who was down from the Otis dog Frosty speaks of. She was given to me by Conan, but after awhile I gave her away myself, because she was thin-boned and very shy.

Never did anything with her, so I can't comment on her quality ultimately. There are a lot of supposed Champions in her ancestry, and I have no way to know if this is true (or at "what level" these supposed Champions competed at).

One thing I pride myself on, however, is the ability to SEE the athleticism, etc. in a dog, just by the way it moves. It was my opinion that Creeper, in addition to being shy, was a gangly and not very athletic animal. Also, her skin and bones were very thin, and she simply did not have the rugged durability that my dogs had.

In addition to extreme gameness, another reason my dogs are able to repeatedly and consistently go and ultimately win in 1.5 to 3 hour-long fights is because they are TOUGH (thick bones, thick hide). At the top of the food chain, you need extreme athleticism, supported by thick bones, and protected by a thick hide ... all driven by extreme gameness ... if you expect to win a long, drawn out fight. After observing the shy, gangly, thin-boned, thin-skinned Creeper for a few months, I just made the decision to give her away ... as there was no way in hell she belonged next to my other bulldogs.

Unfair decision? Premature?

Possibly.

But I have have been able to keep the same family of dogs in the winner's circle, for more than 2 decades, because I know an athlete when I see one ... right away when they're young ... and I didn't see what I like to see in that particular animal.

Jack

How would you compare your TB with evolution. Would you say your are better than his on a whole ?

[Officially Retired]

How would you compare your TB with evolution. Would you say your are better than his on a whole ?

What is a TB?

[FrostyPaws]

Out of the 2 sons of Otis I saw, Banditg was the one with the athletic ability, though I wouldn't call him a high ability dog. He had some ability, some intelligence, and he was quick on his feet. That helped him a lot the day I saw him. Bandit was off Thistle 2, the sister to Terra who sired Yankee and Apollyon.

Yankee, on the other hand, didn't have much ability. He had about average mouth, but he could take it in spades. Yankee was a brother to the Apollyon dog behind Creeper.