The Lemm Keep

[CrazyRed]

A friend of mines used this keep for a while, he was down in the South part and thought it would be better Keep to use as opposed when he lived up north. He always had 3 parts of his yard, he ran Jeep/Sorrells and also ran heavy Eli dogs and last part of his yard he used some Snooty stuff that he tested and kept to breed into his other dogs. No lie we talked about this very keep about a month ago, he said the keep was great with his Jeep/Sorrells dogs but he lost all the time with his Eli dogs on this keep. Interesting his Jeep/Sorrells dogs were head dogs who just stayed out front riding the head with minimal contact and his Eli dogs were rough hard punching wrestlers. The keep was all cardio and took the strength from the dogs. I know they say every keep is different for every dog but this was experience of one man who used this keep as his primary for a few years.

[Officially Retired]

A friend of mines used this keep for a while, he was down in the South part and thought it would be better Keep to use as opposed when he lived up north. He always had 3 parts of his yard, he ran Jeep/Sorrells and also ran heavy Eli dogs and last part of his yard he used some Snooty stuff that he tested and kept to breed into his other dogs. No lie we talked about this very keep about a month ago, he said the keep was great with his Jeep/Sorrells dogs but he lost all the time with his Eli dogs on this keep. Interesting his Jeep/Sorrells dogs were head dogs who just stayed out front riding the head with minimal contact and his Eli dogs were rough hard punching wrestlers. The keep was all cardio and took the strength from the dogs. I know they say every keep is different for every dog but this was experience of one man who used this keep as his primary for a few years.

I wouldn't even say the keep was "great" with the Jeep/Sorrells' dogs ... but rather that the Jeep/Sorrells dogs had a style that "wouldn't get ruined" by that keep.

Even head dogs do better when they have strength put into them: they can be rougher and more physical with their style too ... and control things more decisively and with greater authority.

A dog that relies totally on roughness, with those tools taken away. is just going to be "more obviously" malconditioned than a dog that has other tools to draw on ... but is still put in weaker shape than he could be.

Jack

[CYJ]

The thing I saw in the Lemm keep from the video. Was if you had one of those wide open crazy to work type dogs. If you used tread mills this could give you a guide line of were the dog was going to break down and start trotting. In other words a way to determine when to stop and walk the dog with out letting the dog burn itself out early in the keep. Even if this method is used for a Cardio work out. One session only in one of the work days. Probably being the first work day in the work day grouping. The rest of the next work days the dog can do the Cat Mill, pulling weights, flirt pole etc. Variety is the spice of life and can keep some dogs from getting bored.

The way a pulling dog is worked is very similar to a Pro boxer. If Cardio is all the Boxer needed for wind, stamina, and endurance, the Boxer would do road work like a long distance runner. Run a lot of miles every day. Most Boxers only run one mile for every round to be fought. Then the rest of the various type work is in the gym. Which includes weight lifting, body bag, timing bag, rope jumping. Pushing and sparring with a sparring partner of a heavier weight. To help strengthen against the weight of the opponent.

There is no doubt, that the Swinging Jenny mentioned by Evolution is the Cat's Meow way to go. I believe it was Jack that mentioned about one hard to beat dog man, that put a certain amount of weight on his dogs or they pulled it (not sure which). Walked them into hard as steel shape.

I had a nice well made Treadmill,just did not like it nor a carpet mill. My extra large round table gave the dog a much better workout than the tread mill and was a close second to my Jenny. Preferred the Jenny/Round table and hand walking with a little weight pulling if needed. But not all this in one day. Cheers

[CYJ]

If you note on the James Crenshaw interview. The type tread mill he used being one part of his dog keep. It was not just free wheeling, but had some inherit drag to it and was a larger wide type mill. He let the dog work at it's pace with some faster out put.

The type Round table I built was on a positive traction truck rear end. All the Hog head gears and shafts were left intact. The dog could not just free wheel this extra big table. You fellas that have a wide enough building or lean two. Go twenty foot across. No harder to build one sixteen foot across as twenty foot across. The dog had to use all his muscles to keep it going. If the dog speed up the table did to amount of effort applied. If dog slowed down the table slowed to the amount of effort applied. It never over run the dog but ran at a constant rate to effort.

This was from my experience, the Round Table being the second best type mill to use. When bad weather set in and the Swing Jenny being the best, could not be used. I had a nice built slat mill from a mill maker that used those Volkswagen front end hubs and real professional skate wheel bearings. Was never crazy about a slat mill. I felt it could put to much stress on the back end and kidneys.

I did like Maurice said. It only cost a little more to go first class. I bought the best materials and put in a lot of thought on my Swing Jenny and Round table. I had a Cat mill that was 40 foot on both sides with hook ups to run the dog in either direction. The extra opposing 40 foot length on my Cat mill added inherit drag to it. So it was to some degree not free wheeling either. Overtime though I realized if the Cat Mill and Round table are built long and wide enough. One side for running will do. JMHO. Cheers

[widerange]

I have never felt that the free spinning keep was a good way to go. It just doesn't add up. I have a treadmill but have found that I only use it when working the dog at a slow pase( with the breaks applied) and have the dog hold a hide in mouth to help him breathe in hold. I also seen fat bill found away to work extra resistance training into spring pole work but using a core to hang a chain in a close by tree so that the dog working the spring pole has the resistance of the hanging chain work against. I started using this on my dogs while using a spring pole and have seen a huge improvement the outcome from the time spent spring poling.

[barber]

The term free spinning is often misunderstood, Lemm used the term easy turning and it was mistaken for free spinning, now the novice are in a tread mill spinning contest all around world. I have known gentlemen to use thrift store bought emills with great results, when i walk a dog and plant my heels in the ground thts all the resistance he needs if he's a pulling dog; it's great to have a hard working dog that is motivation for the conditioner. Counter balances were used to offset the weight of the hound not for resistance.

[S_B]

I will agree with the jenny being one of the superior tools to condition a dog. And I will add that most, if not all Jenny's will need a "counterweight" of sorts to make a smooth balanced rotation. BUT, using aweights to drag for resistance on a jenny is silly, unless it is only used for what I already described.

I know a certain individual of whom was at one time quite successful, then after some time away for foolish life decisions. This person trained with a jenny and up to 11 window weights being used as a so called counterweight, or resistance drag. The dog was the most overworked, pathetic looking shell of a dog I have ever seen, including ANY greenhorns dog I've seen.

Also, like mentioned in this thread, the track is probably the most important part of the jenny. It is easy to injure your dog even if the track is perfect. I personally would never use sand, or dirt. You need those shoulders, and they are easy to throw out!

And probably most important of all, over any tool one chooses, is not to overwork your animal.

S_B

[S_B]

As far as Lemm's keep goes, I have used bits and pieces of it in the past. I think Lemm knew quite a lot about conditioning an animal. I don't think his methods deserve being discredited, afterall he was successful using his own method, which included the flying jenny BTW.

He also conditioned horses for his daughter and was successful at that to.

There are many keeps that have been developed by dogmen who have already done the footwork. Don Mayfield, Crenshaw, Lemm, Fat Bill, Ken Allen, Barney Fife, Cali Jack, Jack Kelly and many others. Some of these folks believe in a Slatmill, some hand walking. I think if one takes all of these methods into consideration, and applies the tools and methods that best suite them, you will have success to. Provided you have the most important ingredient, a BULLDOG!

[FrostyPaws]

Jack, I agree about the talent comment, and that goes for mill or jenny.

I personally don't think any person has ever put a dog in their absolute best shape. I think most of the conditioners are barely scratching the surface of what kind of shape a dog can really get into. I've had some dogs in better shape than others, but I don't think I've ever had a dog in it's absolute best shape.

[EWO]

I have often thought this as well. I have seen the same dog conditioned by two different groups and one be better than the other, but I always wondere dif the third group would have gotten even better. Hard to say.

I used the jenny once for awhile. On my 11 acres I have two relatively flat spots as it mostly descends down to a creek. I used the biggest flat spot to build my house. I used the second flat spot for the jenny. In time I used the spot to build my shop. I liked it a lot. I was still in the learning phase but I could see the difference in the dogs. I liked the fact the dogs feet were on the ground as much as a comparison between treadmills and catmills, if that makes sense.

Jack, funny you mentioned the Curios mills. He lived about a couple of miles from here. I pass where he lived near every day in my work commute. That was a strange dude. He loved his dogs. He built great mills. Like most, he would shoot you a dog man curve every now and again, but he was a solid dude. EWO

Jack, I agree about the talent comment, and that goes for mill or jenny.

I personally don't think any person has ever put a dog in their absolute best shape. I think most of the conditioners are barely scratching the surface of what kind of shape a dog can really get into. I've had some dogs in better shape than others, but I don't think I've ever had a dog in it's absolute best shape.