ProjectX,
I'm not as familiar with the Boudreaux dogs, or others mentioned in this thread. But this information is presented as a "theory" which can support facts or evidence as such. But the point is it isn't a proven solid, without a doubt fact.
It is an interesting read tough, and one can make their own judgement based on your theories, and evidence.
I no longer know if John Cotton and Bill Cotton were brothers are of any kin. John Cotton was a ex FBI agent that lived in Tenn. and had some Corvino dogs. He was friends with Mayfield and Mr. Bush. Bill Cotton lived in N.C. and was the owner of the famed Cotton's Bullet dog. I never got to meet Bill Cotton but V. Jackson did at the Hank's dog's first match.
Is some interesting discussion on the Eli/ Tombstone etc. I thought Randy Fox was a member on here. Would like his thoughts on the Speedy Alan's Gina bitch. Maloney had a full sister to Tombstone named Bonnie that was bred to the Fox's Alvin dog and some others. Was some good dogs off her.
There is a lot of OFRN breeding along with Tudor/Corvino/Armitage/Williams/ Colby dogs in Gina's pedigree. If she was a red nose Gyp and since Toot was a red nose dog as well. Tombstone would show that red nose influence.
I had back in my time era thought of Don Maloney just a Dog matcher and Dog conditioner. Other than Toot and Colorado. A lot of his other pedigrees showed more DeCordova/Hemphill and other bred dogs in his area. I will have to pull up his pedigrees and take another look.
Kennedy/Deffenbach/Uselton/Trussell/etc. did more to keep those last breeding's of Tudor going. When the Glover - Stinson Sampson dog was lost after his last match with Hooten's Butcher Boy. Was a great loss to that Tudor family line of dogs. Jim Usleton was wanting to save Sampson so badly. A misunderstanding got him accidentally shot in one leg by a shot gun.
It is sad that men like E. Crenshaw, did not man up back then when they saw breeding's that were shown incorrect. Called UKC and ADBA to get the pedigrees corrected.
Was to late for Mr. E. Crenshaw to have let himself be taped in a interview. Claiming the errors of M. Carver breeding's after he had died. Mr. Crenshaw should have been addressing that matter to Ralph Greenwood when the paper changing was going down. At least with the dogs he and Carver were breeding.
If we could really see how many of the dogs of the 60's, 70's, 80's were really bred. Would be quite a eye opener. Howard Heinzl was one the few dog man that no one spoke bad of. Was considered to have been very honest with his breeding's and papers. Cheers
Very interesting, CYJ, thanks.
Did you know Deffenbach? I heard he lost with a Champion to the great Robert T dog. Did you happen to see that match?
Jack
I agree with some of this.Originally Posted by bolero
I certainly don't take every word out of Mayfield's (or anyone else's) mouth as gospel ... but, by the same token, he did have a lot of insight as to dogs of that era and I am sure some of his ideas/beliefs were true.
Jack
Bolero you are not reading what i posted, i never said that they were mayfield dogs, mayfield made the breeding of crybaby to little cotton , and if as i think it is ,we can see ,that if floyds story about blind billy was a lie, then its very likley that ELI was bred out of the crybaby litter and as such the whole floyd line from that point on was bred down from that litter in some way shape or form.
Bolero i ask you again having read the blind billy story i posted , using times and dates and using what i would call
a nose for smelling a rat, do you think that blind billy can possibly be bred as floyd says , and if not then it would stand to reason that floyd and not mayfield must have been lying, so as i asked you in my previous post, what did mayfiled lie to you about for you to say that about him?, i at least am putting forward my reason with some kind of evidence as to why i feel certain dogs were not bred as their pedigrees showed , what are you providing as evidence about mayfield lying in these cases ?
Nice post cyj, tudors baby was the female of earls that was on maloneys yard and was the likely dam to tombstone, and im sure if you read my post about the audio tape which i actually have and on it there is the convo with maloney and a man who called mayfield some years later and told don about how the gina bitch was up in another state when
she was suposed to be on maloenys yard whelping tomstones litter .
I think that jack is correct in saying that you should never completely belive everything about thoses times, regadless of
who tells you, but im more than happy to take mayfields word about tombstone/ ELI and blind billy not being bred as they show.
I do that not becasue i want to believe it just becasue mayfield says it, i think if you read my post about these dogs , i have used as msuch evidence,such as it is , including floyds own words , and the circumstanstail evidence of various factors like the audio conovs about tombstone, the timeline for blind billy and dibo which if true would more than likely prove that ELI was infact out of the crybaby litter as was thought at the time,and as such would mean that mayfield should at least get some recognition for that litter and the subsequent breeding that floyd most probably made with eli and the other litter mates .
In those audios mayfield had it showed the foresight to keep a record of his converstions ,from them we have found out many things about the breedings not just from amyfields mouth but from the mouths of the men he talked to in those audio tapes, which are the
most important information source we have today , and i only wish i had more of them , but from just those few it proved
a lot of what mayfield had said over these years was true.
As for ed crenshaws audio interview, well i think he in many ways had the tell on carver , he knew more about carvers breedings than most other folks around , and im not sure we should condem him about not telling what he knew about possible mixed up peds like the ones mentioned , as i think the dogmen back then and especially from ed crenshaws generation were far more low key and kept things to themselves much more than today , with the internet and instant access to information etc , but i agree with you it would be great if they all came out and said something , The trouble is back then how did you prove it, there was no dna like today , and when mayfield did say something ,which now looks like it was true, he gets shot down as jealous and crazy , so its not like the fraterntiy welcomes this type of news
with open arms , because if one mans lying then another is telling the truth , and the folks who stand behind the man caught lying never seem to be able to face upto it , its like they feel like thev'e been made to look a fool by sticking up for the liar , so rahter than look like fools they just call the other man a lair and hope it goes away , but the thing is that the truth ,or at least the truth as best as we can get it, comes out in the end ,just like blind billy ELI and tombstone , to name a few.
Did not meet Deffenbach. Did briefly meet Maloney/ Maurice Carver/ and saw some of the other famous dog men at that dog show in Texas. Was when Don Mayfield put on a great dog show and his Easy bitch was matched into Stinson and Glover's Ruby bitch.
After that show when Easy lost to Ruby. Myself and V. Jackson went back to Don's Home and dog yard. With some other dog men do not remember all the names of this small group. Kreshner might have been one of the dog men. I was good at remembering faces but bad on names.
That was the day I started slowly parting ways with Don. Until then I along with Vernon were big Mayfield fans. Don had set up those matches with very strict washing rules. Even using the 100% percent alcohol, fresh sleeveless coveralls and sewed pockets. One sponge and water bucket. Dogs had to enter the show ring through a wire enclosure.
Nothing was handed into the show ring with Corner men on all sides. Some of these matches were going for good money and all means of cheating would be hard to pull off. Not to mention many season dog men were there. Nothing wrong with doing it this way and probably the best way today.
Later as we sat there in the dog yard, talking back and forth. I could see Don was not in the best of moods and kept looking far off in the distance in deep thought. After awhile he finally turned around to us and said his Bitch Easy had been rubbed. That hit me like a ton of bricks and later on in the trip back home.
I told V. Jackson he could continue with the older dogs we had started with, that I felt it was time for me to try something different.
I later got the McNeil Chuck dog, the 2x Lopossay Buster Pearl bitch from Shropshire and the Face bitch from Chandler. The Face bitch had some older Mayfield dogs through the Wille dog from Dwight Hathaway. The rest was mostly Bully Son/Art's Missy through the Middleton Black Betty bitch. Got one good breeding off the Zetterquest brother's Crazy dog.
One other thing that ended any future dealings with Mayfield, not that he ever did anything unfairly at the time we bought the two Coplin bitches from him. We later bred both bitches back to Sunshine and Tina to the Snake dog. Far as I knew, all had went well and Vernon had sent him the pups. Out of the deal Vernon not me had made with him. I had given my part of the pups to Vernon.
Sent the only male I had off Snake x Tina to Mr. Orbie Coplin for the two young stud dogs he had shipped to me. Was the last out cross stud dog Mr. Coplin owned. Named him Carolina Kid and kept him in the house. He and wife liked Carolina Kid a lot.
Later when the Jocko dogs etc. got popular off the Hank dog. Don ups and writes a real bummer of a article on the Hank dog. Vernon had bought the Hank dog as a pup out of Don's puppy pen. Their was some Sibling pups to the Hank dog. Some claim the Panama Red dog to be a sibling brother to Hank. Don gave Jackson the puppy ABDA registering certificate on Hank. Hank was ADBA registered dog.
After I read the article I called Don, asked him why he wrote such a article. When the Hank dog's reputation had not hurt the Mayfield name but enhanced it. He started telling me Vernon had not sent him the correct number of pups. I told him I knew nothing of any of this. Contacted Jackson to see what was up. Seems Vernon was short two pups since he had lost some of his from parvo or maybe a kennel accident. No longer remember all the details
I called Don back and told him I would send him a nice looking brindle female 4-5 month old pup off The Snake x Tina breeding. This was the second time I had ever shipped a dog by airways and did not know the stress a young pup could go through. The pup shipped to Mr. Coplin had went well. When Don picked the pup up it was badly dehydrated and had lost a lot of weight. He was not happy about that.
A year or so later I sent a fine little bitch off His Sunshine dog x Jackson's Pokey. To breed to Sunshine or Snake. He instead kept my bitch, renamed her Mayfield's Tish and bred her to Pusher. Was never able to get any inbreeding off his stud dogs. The last dog Vernon got from Don before their relationship fell apart was the Banjo dog.
Don was one of the best dog men in his prime and his conditioning thoughts and methods changed the way most dogs are worked today. Jackson used a lot of his method and I felt even improved on it. I am glad to have known Don briefly and never had any hard feelings. He was a Pro and I was a rookie.
Over time even Mr. Skinner told me that no matter how Maurice Carver was breeding his dogs. He was going to be the pit dog breeder to have the greatest impact on the dogs of today. Like Colby and Tudor did in their day. Don near the end may have felt he had not gotten the credit he should have. We will never know. Cheers
Nice post again cyj , but having looked at the info about blind billy /ELI in this thread what is your opinion about those breedings , and doesnt it look like don was correct in those and probably many other breedings of the day , i would like to know what you think , as i think maybe the fact that he made the breeding that produced eli may go some way to give him a litte more credit than he seems to have had as a breeder to the many who are uniformed on the matter.
Ditto Projectx, I to feel there may be something to the Cry Baby story as well. I was the one who entered the Mayfield's Cotton pedigree and some other Mayfield pedigrees. The way it is today, I figure if you feel stronger about those thoughts told by those various dog men than what the pedigrees are showing.
Then as the old saying goes, where there is smoke there may be a fire. Breed one's dogs according to those line of thought. Instead of how the papers show the dog or dogs to be bred.
One may end up doing one of two things. Either one's dogs will be bred more correctly or have just made a brand new click that is working. After that, what happens is up to how one choses to breed/cull their dogs and how honest one choses to be with the future papers.
I doubt ADBA or UKC or the other registries will change anything today with most of these dog men no longer living. Even listening to all of those tapes. Putting those tapes on a CD for others to buy and hear. Would if they chose to, could rewrite their own personnel pedigrees to go by. Give a copy of it along with the other pedigree to any dogs sold or farmed out. That other person could to do with the info as they chose.
Sonny Shropshire was a long time Game Chicken person and I enjoyed several trips up to Box Wood. Was a blast from the past. Top Game Chicken men and game chickens meeting from all States to get it on. LOL
Sonny was a good dog man in the short time he was in it. One day not long before he quit the dog game. He told me during a visit that Game Chicken breeders and conditioners he had known. Were a hell of a lot more honest than the crowd of Pit dog men he had known and dealt with in the past years. I said you are probably right. LOL
In closing If I was going to get back into the game. Pedigrees and dog papers would not be my first priority. I would look for a yard of dogs like Mr. Hollingsworth had bred up. Dogs that are built to perform and all of the dogs on the yard look a like.
Hopefully you will get the right papers of what that immediate breeder has done and the advice of how to carry on that line. The Dog game is a never ending story with lots of highs and lows. May you all have a lot of Highs and very few lows. Cheers
Good post CYJ , if you tend to believe the crybaby theory which i also believe to be true, then what about the blind billy
story, i think that is the one that has the evidence to prove it could not be correct based on the dob of dibo and the timeline with floyds own version of when and how he got billy , which in turn then makes the ELI crybaby story fit into place with much more certainty and means that like a house of cards the whole boudreaux line based on blind billy and ELI's pedigrees collapses like a house of cards.
I dont know what a man might do if he had all of dons audios or even just some of them, i just know that on the 15 i have
there is so much information that i wonder how much more we might learn if we had them all, and don had the foresight to
make those recordings so he could refer back to them, and also so he could prove such things about breedigns and other
such things that a man might say in confidence on the phone ,but not admit in public as don knew how the game was and
that the match was not only at pitside ,but in every conversation with many of those men .
But don also was so into the history of the breed and the dogmen from the past, that he would also take his tape
recorder with him on his visits to earl tudors place ,and he would record as much as he could of earl telling about
his time and the men he played the game with, which showed his passion for the game ,and don always put earl
at the top of the tree ,and those recordings of earl were dons way of not loosing that to just a memory ,and i for
one thank him for that , becasue of all the books and magazines and other gamedog related stuff i have, the items
i would keep above all others are the audio tapes i have , and especially the ones with earl tudor .
I think as you said , the ADBA or UKC arent going to change the peds on these dogs, eventhough i do believe that the
blind billy dog can be proved to be without much doubt to not be as bred as the official dob of dibo and the age of when
he arrived at tudors place to the dob on blind billy , means it was impossible for dibo to be the sire , and in this case i
think that those registries should when evidence is clear and damming of such falsfication of a pedigree as in billys case
that they delete that pedigree from billy and change the pedigree to say unknown behind billy , regardless of who
is the man behind the dog, even a legend like floyd boudreuax , otherwise it means that we can't have any confidence
in these registries to police these matters and act when they have reason to do so.
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