Then why would her owners ducking QOH? If she was that weight and could've made 38, she definitely be the bigger dog.Originally Posted by CrazyRed
Then why would her owners ducking QOH? If she was that weight and could've made 38, she definitely be the bigger dog.
tornado never ducked anyone look at her comp she went into the best competitors of her time j and k allen were friends and thats all no ducking took place
That is preposterous.
To say, "If a dog was 42+, then it could make 38," is freakin ridiculous.
Taking a bitch down 4lb in weight like that is how foolish people lose good dogs. The real truth is, if The Queen was 38 she could come up to 42.
What world middleweight boxing Champion goes down in weight to fight welter?
What world heavyweight boxing Champ goes down in weight to fight cruiser or light heavy?
Answer = no one. The truth is, in real professional fighting, if there's a weight disparity among competitors, then the littler fighter has to come UP in weight, it's as simple as that.
Ken Allen had 10x the number of huge deals, involving multi-winner to multi-winner, as JA ever thought about having. Ken (literally) had 500 dogs, and he wasn't "emotionally attached" to any of them. He had all the money he could want, and he matched anyone anywhere. To say that he "ducked" the 38 lb QOH with the 42-44 lb 10xW Tornado is utterly laughable to anyone with a brain. This is not a slam on The Queen or her owner at all. She was a great dog in capable hands. The "slam" is on the preposterous notion that KA "ducked" a 4-lb smaller dog, when he and his camp have repeatedly gone into some of the best dogs in history at even weight.
The truth is, the dogs were too far apart in weight. And the other truth is Tornado's name is the one who holds THE highest mark in bitch history ... not The Queen's.
At the end of the day, only the people from The Queen's camp think about Tornado ... the remaining people from Tornado's camp (whom I know personally) don't think about The Queen at all
AND they've matched into as good, and in many cases better dogs than The Queen, over and over again, for longer than you've been alive
Jack
Not sure if they matched into better thant he Queen she was truly a specimen of a dog. Yet she was a 38-40 dog and wasn't no slouch. Remember talking to Mr Layne a long time ago about some of the better dogs and neither of Tornado or Queen were unbeatable in his mind but every dog has it's day. 2 great dogs at 2 totally different weight classes, a friend of mine lost to Queen of Hearts and she was one beast of a bitch. I dont believe in matching different sexes but if i would then it would have to be a bitch like Queen of Hearts. She was great and so was Tornado. Me personally I believe the most underrated bitch of that era was Lady Stone and folks may not know but her manager died young before he got fully started. He was able to manage Lady Stone and did stop 2 Champions from ever getting to meet Tornado. At that weight, she was probably the best dog for your buck to stand a chance against Tornado. I know Queen of Hearts got moved up in weight and her handlers Abraham Brothers were at quite a few dances. Not sure why people always compare the two, and why people think Tornado ducked queen when they were at 2 different weight classes. Yes I've heard about the offer, yes I know about the offer. There were quite a few guys there when the offer was made but it wasn't really an offer. It was, i think I have the best bitch to walk the earth and so do you. If you want that bitch killed lets hook them. Ken A was a gambler and had plenty money and so did the Abraham Brother's, but it wasn't a call out as some make it appear to be.
At even weight, sure, absolutely, most people would agree it would be a "pickem" fight ... but with a 4 lb weight disadvantage against a phenom like Tornado, The Queen would have no chance.
As for the "equal or better dogs" this camp has been into: Gr Ch Adapt, Gr Ch Outlaw, Gr Ch Sampson 5xBIS, DBL Gr Ch Melonhead 14xW, Gr Ch Migraine, etc., etc.
So to think they would be happily going into dogs of this caliber at even weight (and either beating these dogs or taking them all the way) ... but that they're suddenly scared and going to be "ducking" a 4-lb smaller bitch with arguably the greatest bitch who ever lived ... is just silly.
Jack
Cali Jack, I agree I'm saying that they weren't scared. I respect both camps as they did what they were suppose to do. I know neither were scared of each other, it ain't them that is stating all of these stories and sayings. We can fantasize all we want about who would win but we shouldnt knock the dogs for what people who are not part of their camps state. Both great dogs, not taking away from either of them.
Point well made.
I would never knock a bitch like The Queen. I was knocking the laughable idea that Ken Allen and The A-Team would 'duck' a 4-lb smaller bitch when he had the greatest bitch of all time ... and repeatedly went into the finest competition out there.
It would be just as laughable to say JA "ducked" the 5-lb smaller Gr Ch BB Red. BB too is an all-time great, and maybe she could win at even weight, but no way could she spot The Queen 5 lb of weight and have a snowball's chance of living, let alone winning. But if they were the same size she would.
That is essentially my point re: the 38 lb Queen of Hearts and the 42 lb Tornado.
It is always funny to me that the two camps had these two dogs ( and it could be any two in the same time frame) were doing doing dogs at the highest level. It didn't happen because the two parties involved understood the difference in weight. 20 plus years later there is always someone out there who never laid hands or eyes on either dog, but knows one camped ducked the other. Or more often, how a dog is 'really' bred. EWO
Yes I agree with you two guys. JA was a smart man, very humble but not shy man. He was no fool and would never give you 2lbs let alone 5lbs. Same as Ken A wouldn't be foolish and take Tornado down 5lbs. Some talk about what others doing and then those who are doing.
I definitely agree that we shouldn't lose sight of what these bitches and their camps accomplished. That being said Ace himself said he asked Kenny directly to put it together. Ken said he'd think about it and then came back and declined to make the match. That's not an opinion of someone outside the camps and that's not speculation. Why the match was declined we may never know, that is speculation. But the opportunity was definitely presented.
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