no one can really tell you what "it's all about". that's just a matter of opinion. every person like different things for different reasons.Originally Posted by pig mad
no one can really tell you what "it's all about". that's just a matter of opinion. every person like different things for different reasons.
it is really hard to put a timer on it. All dogs that go over an hour are not necessarily game. The opposing dog may have never taken him to the point where there was a decision to be made, do i go? or do I stay? One of the phrases I hate in these dogs is giving a dog props by saying he/she curred another one out. I don't really think any one particular animal can make another quit, or find the cur if the cur is not there. I believe in the level of gameness theories so that particular dog was going to quit regardless of who got him to his decision making point. Maybe it is a play on words, but I believe the better the opponent the faster he will get there. But if that dog is game, it does not matter the quality of the opponent, he will always be there. The key is when he is deemed game enough by the owner, whether he is picked up or whether he is left down hoping the higher class animal quits on top. EWO
Historically the term "pit game" was used to describe a dog who had demonstrated enough gameness to be shown, but was then eventually shown to be less than deep game in the pit.
They will all quit. Everyone of them. It's just finding the exactly what it is, that will make them quit. Now that's not my intention, but in any combative contest, that SHOULD be the agenda. Find what it is that will make your opponent quit....thus - winning. Long story short, there are degrees/levels of gameness.
I got to spend quite a bit of time with the legendary Danny Burton. He said something one time that I really liked. "I ain't here to find out how game MY dog is. We're here to find out how game YOUR dog is." That's the winning mentality.
Nothing will quit a dog faster than heat and the inability to breath.
The guy that turned me onto dogs put it like this, " I don't care how game your dog is I want to make him unable to scratch, regardless of his desire". He always bet on his dog being rougher, harder mouthed and in better condition. His plan was to stop the other dog, having total disregard for the level of gameness across the way. And if the other quit a long the way he would say someone missed a sign a long the way and should have brought a different dog. EWO
So what do you think about gameness related to maturity?
Would a 16 month old fully started dog show the same (level of) gameness as the same dog 2 years later in the same situation?
That is a great point.
Gameness varies within EACH individual dog ... at different ages ... in different states of health ... and against different opponents/challenges/sets of circumstances.
People try to make gameness so "cut and dry," but it really is a complex trait and subject that warrants more chin-rubbing than most people are willing to give it.
Jack
It is as individual as anything in these dogs. No two dogs are alike. I have often wondered how many dogs labelled a cur and put down yesterday could have won today. That 16 month old may show game today and at two years old be a more mature dog, maybe deeper game and over all better. Or, he could have very well shot his wad at 16 months and decide to pack it at 2 years old. There are only a handful of statements in these dogs that ring true across the board and one is "only time will tell".
One of my personal favorites was a bolio/eli male I had that just absolutely loved to be in the mix. Winning or losing, top or bottom, as long as he had a hold life was just grand. I am not sure if this is a level, or an accurate description, but he was plain crazy game/stupid game. He could bite shit in half but would give up ten holds to get one. His tail wagged the entire time and I swear at times he had a smile on his face. I am not sure if he thought he was game or thought he was winning or really even cared. He just wanted to be involved but had no real agenda for being there except just being there. Crazy game or stupid game if that makes sense. EWO
Good point. We had a 2X winner many years ago. He won is first in a little under an hour, his second in 1:36, in a very tough deal, and then lost his championship bid to CH Tweaker in less than :50. The dog had shown much more gameness in the past not only in time, but fatigue, punishment, pretty much every aspect of being down than he showed in his loss. After he quit in that show, the dog was kept around to evaluate again. The next time, he didn't even last :30. It was like he was all used up. I think quitting broke the dog down spiritually and emotionally.
There's no exact science to this stuff, which is why the ones who consistently show they won't quit are very special dogs regardless of how they are bred. Many of them won't be able to produce that same package themselves with regularity, but they represent the breed well as individuals, and I just love a good, game dog.
This is what we all have to remember. Dogs aren't machines, and i think there is only so much a dog can handle. What I've noticed is that a dog is only worth what he did last time you looked at him. What if a dog gave you all his got in an outing. Do you really need to have that dog prove that again? There are many examples were dogs that showed deep gameness one time are broken psychological to the next and leaves you standing scratching your head.
Dogs would be easy if there was a right or wrong way in this.. Thank god it ain't...
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