These guys USED a few RBJ dogs, true. A few.Originally Posted by Nextlevel
But these dogs were NOT either their "most-often-used" ... nor their BEST ... and these dogs are also not what they KEPT and BRED
Jack
These guys USED a few RBJ dogs, true. A few.
But these dogs were NOT either their "most-often-used" ... nor their BEST ... and these dogs are also not what they KEPT and BRED
Jack
I would strongly disagree.but it is like coke and Pepsi,whatever your flavor is .is naturally gonna be the best.even though old SDJ reports clearly show RBJ in the lead in the 90's
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Actually, that is not even remotely true either.
In fact, in the 90s, Fat Bill (in the editorial of his American Gamedog Times magazine) used to call the Journal "The Jeep/Buck" Journal ... not because RBJ dogs were in there the most ... but because Jeep/Buck (Crenshaw/STP) dogs were in there the most.
I actually think Jeep/Rascal and Eli dogs dominated ... and Boyles dogs were in there a bunch too ... and, of course, RBJ dogs were in there as well. (I mean, hey, it's a great line.)
But your statement "all the good dogs" come from this line is so false it would do everyone some good if you just retracted it
Jack
What fat bill was talking about ,jack Kelly and Crenshaw being best of friends ,not to mention who ever spent the most money in the mag with paid adds .i I never said that RBJ were the only good dogsActually, that is not even remotely true either.
In fact, in the 90s, Fat Bill (in the editorial of his American Gamedog Times magazine) used to call the Journal "The Jeep/Buck" Journal ... not because RBJ dogs were in there the most ... but because Jeep/Buck (Crenshaw/STP) dogs were in there the most.
I actually think Jeep/Rascal and Eli dogs dominated ... and Boyles dogs were in there a bunch too ... and, of course, RBJ dogs were in there as well. (I mean, hey, it's a great line.)
But your statement "all the good dogs" come from this line is so false it would do everyone some good if you just retracted it
Jack
You said exactly that. Here is what you said, at the top and bottom of Page 1:
Those are the statements that I, and other, knowledgeable dogmen are having trouble swallowing.
No one is suggesting RBJ dogs aren't good, some truly great.
No one is suggesting that it isn't an all-time great bloodline.
What is being disputed is 1) that this line has made MORE dogs "dead game" than any other (which I assume means killed more dogs than any other), and 2) that "all the good ones" are of this bloodline. They simply are not.
You have made two false statements IMO.
It's not the end of the world ... but it does provide a lot of room for debate
Jack
I would agree with that
This is a view I have had for a long time. When you breed two dogs from someone else that is all you really know. Then breeding from there gives you more. From there and so on. In time you will know what you have. Sell one puppy, farm one out, give one away and that 'not knowing' cycle starts all over again.
I know a few I trust completely. I know some I trust only as far as I could throw them. Some would get my wallet as I threw them. Like most endeavors it is a cross section of society. The dogs have a little bit of every one involved. It takes all kinds. EWO
I admitted you were right when, in fact, you were right. But just because you were right "once" doesn't give you carte blanche on being right forever
In this case, you're wrong. You're also all over the place, trying to forget the two ridiculous statements you said that prompted all this.
So let us FORGET STP, to whom you're affixing yourself for some crazy reason, because he has nothing to do with THE POINT.
The point is this ... you made these two statements:
These two statements are both WRONG ... and they can never be made "right" by changing the subject to STP or anything else.
The FACT is 1) RBJ dogs haven't won/killed or done anything "more than anyone else" ... and 2) all of the good ones are not RBJ.
I am not even going to get into #2 because it's so laughably ridiculous it doesn't deserve to be discussed, so let's stick to #1.
Please stick to the point. Not STP. Not Frosty. Not Buck. Not the fact STP "used" some RBJ dogs. None of that.
Make a list of the 10 winningest/killingest bitches in the history of the game.
Make a list of the 10 winningest/killingest males in the history of the game.
See how many are RBJ ... because, according to my understanding, MAYBE you could put Barracuda up there ... but he's a 55 lb slug really.
That is not a very competitive weight class. But let's give him his due because he won 9.
Other than at ONE dog, out of a total of 20 possible slots, tell me how many RBJ dogs are on your list? How many dogs killed 6, 7, 8, 9 dogs in a row?
Be real, be fair. Not 3, not 2, not a dog that killed one in a roll. I am talking about ALL TIME GREAT MULTI-KILLER / MULTI-WINNING DOGS.
Then compare that to the results of Eli/Carver(including Bolio), Jeep/Rascal, and other great crosses and tell me what you honestly come up with.
Jack
I might be wrong ,but was I the one that brought stp in the post .?Jack I could name plenty of RBJ dogs .and for the legal record I am referring to hog hunting ( killings hogs ) and for the record how many of these so called historical matches have you witnessed with your own eyes ? Not through the grapevine..I admitted you were right when, in fact, you were right. But just because you were right "once" doesn't give you carte blanche on being right forever
In this case, you're wrong. You're also all over the place, trying to forget the two ridiculous statements you said that prompted all this.
So let us FORGET STP, to whom you're affixing yourself for some crazy reason, because he has nothing to do with THE POINT.
The point is this ... you made these two statements:
These two statements are both WRONG ... and they can never be made "right" by changing the subject to STP or anything else.
The FACT is 1) RBJ dogs haven't won/killed or done anything "more than anyone else" ... and 2) all of the good ones are not RBJ.
I am not even going to get into #2 because it's so laughably ridiculous it doesn't deserve to be discussed, so let's stick to #1.
Please stick to the point. Not STP. Not Frosty. Not Buck. Not the fact STP "used" some RBJ dogs. None of that.
Make a list of the 10 winningest/killingest bitches in the history of the game.
Make a list of the 10 winningest/killingest males in the history of the game.
See how many are RBJ ... because, according to my understanding, MAYBE you could put Barracuda up there ... but he's a 55 lb slug really.
That is not a very competitive weight class. But let's give him his due because he won 9.
Other than at ONE dog, out of a total of 20 possible slots, tell me how many RBJ dogs are on your list? How many dogs killed 6, 7, 8, 9 dogs in a row?
Be real, be fair. Not 3, not 2, not a dog that killed one in a roll. I am talking about ALL TIME GREAT MULTI-KILLER / MULTI-WINNING DOGS.
Then compare that to the results of Eli/Carver(including Bolio), Jeep/Rascal, and other great crosses and tell me what you honestly come up with.
Jack
You "might be" wrong? That's a good start, Sonny
No, you were the one who made the incorrect statements I have listed above.
Again, I am not talking about "winners" of the RBJ line ... or even Grand Champions ... I am talking about the winningEST dogs IN HISTORY ... Grand Champion of Grand Champions ... and the only ONE I can think of is Barracuda. Other than that 1 dog ... I see mostly Eli/Carver dogs of some type.
Unless you can think of dogs other than Barracuda, where are they? Where are the RBJ dogs like Shady Lady (5x :37 total), Molly Bee (8xW) (who killed Jocko's sister Ch Apple), Queen of Hearts (8xW), Tornado (10xW), MelonHead (14xW), etc.
The only RBJ candidate I know of, who was a true killer that was in a real tough weight class, was Ken Allen's Gr Ch Zinc (6xW) ... but you know who he lost to? A Jeep/Rascal dog, Rebel Kennels' Gr Ch Sampson (5x BIS). Which goes back to Eli/Carver.
Again, Ch Nico (3/4 RBJ) also lost to the Eli/Carver Gr Ch IBM ... and, again, just to drive home a point, so too did the RBJ dog Ch Glock get beat by another Jeep/Rascal (Eli/Carver) dog in Gr Ch Da Beast (7xW).
So I am not seeing the RBJ dogs on the very, very, tip-top of the "kill em all" heap ... I am seeing them GET KILLED more often than not in that elite setting ... and I am seeing some type of Eli/Carver cross doing the killing
Well, I haven't witnessed any of them, but neither have you, so that doesn't change THE FACTS of what I am saying.
What I have done is I have bred dogs that have won all over the world.
I have also bred TO various strains of dogs in experimental crosses, and rolled INTO various bloodlines, for over 20 years.
I have never seen one RBJ dog, or cross, that I thought was my absolute BEST dog ... nor seen any cross or pure dog of this line GET PASSED one of my best.
Quite the opposite, in fact.
Now I have seen some REALLY GOOD RBJ crosses, as I have said (and some really rank ones too). But, as with the historical record above, the absolute BEST crosses with my line (dogs that have killed 6-9 in a row, dogs that made the cover of magazines, dogs that have killed opponents with one bite behind the head on the brain stem, in less than :18, TWICE IN A ROW) have been some kind of ELI or CHINAMAN cross in there ... or been plain-old Poncho/Coca Cola dogs without any cross.
However, to be honest, I must concede a point and say that Carl Crews made a Poncho/Coca Cola/RBJ breeding that has more wins in it AS A LITTER (18 wins, 1 DG loss) than virtually any breeding I have ever heard of. And Angel Lajara (who conditioned Mayday's sister Ch Choice) says Gr Ch Dragon had everything ... but is he an "ALL TIME GREAT" dog? No.
But it *was* one helluva litter.
So let's just admit 3 things: 1) the winningest dogs in the history of the game are not RBJ ... 2) that RBJ dogs don't make up ANYWHERE NEAR "all the good dogs" out there ... but that 3) there have been some really good, some truly great, dogs of this bloodline ... and that it is certainly competitive with anything out there.
Jack
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