Appreciate you taking the time and effort to offer your insight , greatly appreciated . I have been using a 30/20 kibble and using Garners RF1 when shaping one and have to say it works very well . The stools are alot smaller and the dogs are always ready to work . I do build it up slowly to the full dosage and do not begin till after pre keep which is very similiar to what you have advised . I have a pup that has been on Orijen since birth and is responding extremly well . Will see how he responds to that when I really start putting the miles to him etc ... Now my friend has been drilling into me the importance of weighing the dog multiple times , feeding exact same times , measuring time between stools etc so the dog is empty and at true weight for the event . So he is with you on that . I'm really debating going raw . Been doing my research but still dragging my feet . Wanna give the best I can as they give so much to me and for me . Thanks again for all your help and insight sir .