WHAT IS THE BEST WORMER

[Officially Retired]

Page 160 to 165, read it and calling to order things between the over 100 calls I get a day with people offering me work just doesn't happen. Then there is baseball practice, basketball practice birthday parties, and a host of other things in life you do not have to deal with as a single man who has no children Jack. And 5 pages to tell someone how to worm a dog is ridiculous. My opinion.
I could care less about “Saving Money” which is the main jest of your not going to the feed store, I make plenty of it, it is my Time that is valuable to me, and splashing a little dirt on the food I’m going to give my dogs every day that I can pick up from the same place I but my feed from makes the most sense to my brain Jack, maybe not yours because we’re all different.
No need to try to cut me down because I don’t follow your book verbatim, at least you got my money, isn’t that the whole reason, at least main reason, you created the book, to sell it?
Again and as with everything, to each his own, no hard feelings, no need for red ink because I’m going to do things the way I’ve always done them, MY WAY. I never claimed to have “Followed” your book, I just bought it and read it, as most who have it have done.
Cheers!
David B.

David,

It sounds like you're getting angry with me over nothing but your own embarrassment over being absolutely incorrect in everything you've said, nor even truthful for that matter. And now you're making up excuses to cover-up your embarrassment, and trying to downgrade my motives and my book as well.

So let us take a look at one of your excuses/lies under the old microscope: If having baseball games and making a phone call is "too hard" for you to do, just to get a simple wormer, then how do you ever accomplish ordering any DE? You see what I mean? Again, you're not making any sense, and you're just offering empty excuses/downright lies as a response. The simple, unavoidable fact is ... if you have the time to order DE, and give it to your dogs every single day, then it makes no rational sense to say you don't have the time to order wormer and give it once a month. So you're simply making up pure BS just to give "a response" here. Therefore, in the end, sometimes it is just better to admit you have no idea what you're talking about ... than it is to continue lying and making up excuses to carry a dead and defeated point.

Now then, regarding how "ridiculous" it is to write 5 pages about a wormer, it is even more ridiculous to LIE and imply that you understood and followed the instructions, when it is clear as day you did not. The simple fact is, 5 pages devoted to wormers is actually NOT ENOUGH (the Merck Veterinary Manual actually has 13 small-type pages devoted to wormers, and it still is only scratching the surface). Clearly my point is made here by the very fact 5 pages wasn't enough to educate you on the subject, if you're using Zimectrin paste

For simple-minded people, maybe reading 5 pages seems like a lot, but for people who actually want to learn the principles behind it all, so they can really understand what they're doing ... and avoid making the utter blunders that "most people" typically make ... then more than 5 pages are required, which is why I am working on a huge article addressing the matter. By your disposition and attitude, I can tell you won't bother to read it, but I promise you that there are those dogmen who will read it--and appreciate it also.

In the end, you can do what you want to do David, I am well aware of that, but when you come to my board and claim that you followed my advice ... when clearly this is a lie ... I will publicly take you to task on such BS, which is only fair. Next time, it might be advisable just to say, "This is what I do," and leave the utterly false implications and statements out of it.

Jack

[HOGBIZ]

With all due respect to you Sir, I bought the DE at Tractor Supply, OTC, the same place I buy feed for my dogs and hogs.

Warning received and noted.

[Officially Retired]

With all due respect to you Sir, I bought the DE at Tractor Supply, OTC, the same place I buy feed for my dogs and hogs.

Okay, so then if you have time to go to physically go the feed store (not to mention post 3x here today), then the idea that you "don't have time" to make a simple phone call to have wormer shipped to you simply doesn't add-up.

Neither does the idea that you are "too pressed for time" to administer standard wormer once a month; yet do have the time to administer DE every day.

And, finally, because you still have to use ivermectin for heartworm which (along with its equivalents) are the most toxic wormers there are, then you really aren't "avoiding toxic chemicals" either.

What I am trying to get at here, as tactfully as I can put it, is the whole idea of "avoiding chemical use" by using DE doesn't actually happen. And what I also needed to clarify here, in no uncertain terms, is that you never did actually follow my worming protocol at all, so you had no right to mention it here in this post. Factually-speaking, my worming protocol is quicker, it is as/more effective as DE, it is by far less time-consuming, and it is also cheaper. There is no way around these facts.

However, we both agree that you can use what you want, and I can use what I want, which is as it should be.

Warning received and noted.

Good. There is no need to have a factual debate resort to nastiness or lies. In civil debate and dialogue, when the facts don't add-up, the proper response is to concede the point (or at least admit there are no other facts known), it is not the time to digress to insults and false statements.

Just sticking to the facts, without saying anything false or deliberately loaded, is invariably the best way to keep a conversation decent.

Jack

[BIGFLA73]

HOW MUCH IS YOUR WORMER

[Officially Retired]

HOW MUCH IS YOUR WORMER

I don't have a wormer that I produce, what I do is have a worming protocol that I recommend. For example, giving a dose of this wormer once a month only costs eleven cents.

To figure out the cost, this wormer is $25.95 for 32 oz., and since there are 30 ml per ounce, this means the above product contains 960 ml of drug for $25.95 (or $0.027/ml).

Since it only take 4ml to treat a 40-lb dog, that means you're only spending $0.108 (just under eleven cents) to treat each dog.

Jack

[BulldogConnection]

I use DE and believe It is one of the easiest most cost effective routes available. I do not know the exact cost per dose but a 20lb bag costs me under $20. With the DE there's no need to purchase multiple multiple wormers or rotate anything simply add a small tblspn to the feed and it's done. If anyone's worried about it taking too much time 1) it doesn't increase feed prep time much at all and 2) when it comes to the health of your animal that shouldn't be a concern anyway.

Now I couple this with Ivermectin and give it every 3 months.

[Officially Retired]

I use DE and believe It is one of the easiest most cost effective routes available. I do not know the exact cost per dose but a 20lb bag costs me under $20. With the DE there's no need to purchase multiple multiple wormers or rotate anything simply add a small tblspn to the feed and it's done. If anyone's worried about it taking too much time 1) it doesn't increase feed prep time much at all and 2) when it comes to the health of your animal that shouldn't be a concern anyway.
Now I couple this with Ivermectin and give it every 3 months.

That is a good rebuttal BC, and it makes perfect sense, but allow me to offer my own:

The trouble for me regarding the DE issue is this: 1) I prepare my dog's food by hand in the kitchen, and I don't need a 20-lb bag of "earth" occupying space there, and 2) when it comes to the health of my animals, 4 ml of common pyrantel wormer 1x a month does not compromise it in any way whatsoever.

There is simply ZERO 'health benefit' to using DE on a daily basis, because using standard wormers on the dogs does not harm them one bit ... thus it simply amounts to TIME and SPACE. Me personally, while tossing an extra tBsp/tsp of the stuff onto the feed every day might not be that big of a deal, I don't want a 20-lb bag of "earth" in my kitchen. Nor do I want to drag it back and forth from the shop to the kitchen. If I were feeding kibble and operating out of my workshop, this might make sense, but I hand-prepare my dog's food in our kitchen (which is A LOT healthier for the dogs than feeding kibble), and do not have the space for a 20-lb sack of dirt. In the end, just taking a bottle of wormer and a syringe around the yard once-a-month is FAR more convenient for me and it is absolutely safe to do.

Safety Facts

The accepted dosage of pyrantel for dogs is 5mg/lb, 1-2x/month, which is trivial. In experiments using up to 100mg/lb (TWENTY TIMES THE NEEDED DOSE), and used daily (not monthly), not a single problem could be attributed to pyrantel, even when given for periods of 19, 30, and 90 days straight (let alone once a month). Clinical studies conducted in a wide variety of geographic locations, using more than 40 different breeds of dog, showed ZERO drug-induced toxic effects. Included in these studies were nursing pups, weaned pups, adults, pregnant bitches, and males at stud.

So where is the "danger" here? There is none! As a matter of fact, speaking of which is safer than which, try giving your dogs 20 tBsp of DE, every day for 90 days, and I'll bet they can't take it ... but they could with pyrantel.

Therefore, the idea that you're "protecting your dog from harm" using DE is an illusion. What you're doing is giving yourself 30 days of worming work a month, rather than just one.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

In doing some research, the question actually boils down to does diatomaceous earth even work on internal roundworms?

Pest control
Diatomite is used as an insecticide, due to its physico-sorptive properties. The fine powder absorbs lipids from the waxy outer layer of insects' exoskeletons, causing them to dehydrate.[9] Arthropods die as a result of the water pressure deficiency, based on Fick's law of diffusion. This also works against gastropods and is commonly employed in gardening to defeat slugs. However, since slugs inhabit humid environments, efficacy is very low. It is sometimes mixed with an attractant or other additives to increase its effectiveness. Medical-grade diatomite is sometimes used to de-worm both animals and humans, with questionable efficacy.[10][11] It is most commonly used in lieu of boric acid, and can be used to help control and eventually eliminate cockroach and flea infestations. This material has wide application for insect control in grain storage.[12] It has also been used to control bedbug infestations, but this method may take weeks to work.[13]
Wikipedia

Alternative Dewormers
Currently, there is a lot of interest in using "natural" products as an alternative to chemical control of parasites. Such products include herbal dewormers and diatomaceous earth. Unfortunately, there is no research to indicate that any of these products have a substantial effect on internal parasites in sheep, only "testimonials." However, this is an area of increasing research interest and hopefully recommendations will be forthcoming in the years ahead.
Sheep 101

Based on the reading I have done, DE's real effectiveness is in DRY conditions where it causes the dehydration of insects/arthropods, by piercing their exoskeletons, but in moist environments and as a supposed remedy for intestinal roundworm, hookworm, whipworm, etc., its value seems to be extremely limited, if it has any value at all. In researching this compound for over two hours, there seem to be no actual studies done to show this "remedy" even works at all for intestinal worms, let alone with 100% effectiveness. At this point, it seems to me the only thing you find in support of DE are the "empty testimonials" of over-zealous laymen, but no actual confirmed studies and documentation from credible sources.

I don't have any more time to devote to this issue right now, but if anyone can show me some actual documented reports, I would be happy to view them.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

I finally found a published scientific study on Diatomaceous Earth, and it appears DE has no effect on worms at all.

However, it appears to have a noticeable affect as a nutrition supplement, and consequently is more properly discussed in the Nutrition Section.

[BIGFLA73]

http://purepermaguard.com/diatomaceous-earth-study.php
http://www.ehow.com/about_6511644_diato ... evels.html
http://www.phdproducts.com/main/phdpage.asp?page=141
I think it boils down to what you like and are will to do .... there are good wormers everwhere ,so it really choice.