INDIAN SONNY'S BOLIO DOGS -- BETTER THAN PATRICK'S?

[FrostyPaws]

I never saw 45 go though he wasn't far from me. I know where he was, and I know that most of the people in that area weren't what I'd call top shelf competition. That being said, it doesn't take away from what 45 did. It just would've been nice for him to do into some dogs people thought more of I guess.

I saw Amboss go, and he was an outstanding dog. I did try to hook my Bullet dog into him before he became champion, but we had just beaten BBC not long before then. I don't know if that factored into it or not personally, but I always find those kind of scenarios interesting when they do happen.

I also knew MOK. I've known Jr Bush for over 20 years, along with some of his closest friends from showing dogs back in the 60s. Jr always had one of two things. He either had a top quality dog or he had one of the lowest quality dogs you could think to see, but it never bothered Jr. He just loved doing what he did.

That being said, I also believe that Indian Sonny would've probably made a better quality dog over the years of breeding. But like all who agreed, there would be so many top quality dogs that would've never existed. Even with Pat selling dogs, it's hard to argue with the success he had by breeding those dogs. I've never bought a dog from Pat, and while I've pondered it a time or two, I never really come close to doing so, but I would buy a dog from Indian Sonny if given the chance knowing what I know about his dogs and how he liked his dogs.

Given the right type of Eli dog, it can add a lot to your program if you're able to keep it going as needed. Being as the dogs I've bred, at this point, are based around the Eli/Redboy/Honeybunch scenario, it's hard to argue with the way those dogs are headed now with the proper molding and breeding decisions. I would be hard pressed to take any Maloney bred dogs over Jasper for any reason.

[Officially Retired]

I never saw 45 go though he wasn't far from me. I know where he was, and I know that most of the people in that area weren't what I'd call top shelf competition. That being said, it doesn't take away from what 45 did. It just would've been nice for him to do into some dogs people thought more of I guess.

I really can't comment on that, except to say I heard Jackson's 45 was with hoodrats, essentially. That was his problem: in the hands of undesirables and he had a freakishly-devastaing mouth. Who wants to go into either?

No, the circumstances of 45's ownership didn't take away from his abilities at all, but it DID take away from the potential of his achievements. Still, I don't care "who" owns a dog ... dogs just don't DOA other dogs on the head, twice in a row, unless they're being rolled with dogs 1/8th their size--or unless they are a freak. That is something an adult can do to a puppy, but seldom to another adult its own size. If a dog DOAs another dog on the head, ONCE, it's pretty much considered a freak occurrence. Again, Andy Capp did it once, in 5 fights, and he was called "The Mouth of the South" ... yet 45 did it twice in a row, at :17 and :19, in front of legit dog dudes, and that is a freakishly-hard mouth by any yardstick.

I have had head dogs for my whole career and never seen that once.
The only "fast DOAs" I have ever seen were throat dogs, cutting off the air.

If you knew where 45 was when he was active, and wanted to see him go into "something you thought more of," you could have always stepped up to the plate yourself

I saw Amboss go, and he was an outstanding dog. I did try to hook my Bullet dog into him before he became champion, but we had just beaten BBC not long before then. I don't know if that factored into it or not personally, but I always find those kind of scenarios interesting when they do happen.

Most people match dogs to win. If BBC didn't think he could beat your Bullet dog, after losing to him, that would be a good reason not to match, lol

MOK thought very highly of Amboss too and I think was in BBC's camp for all of his matches. Yet, he was never 100% sure he would win any of his shows (which is natural). In fact, MOK told me directly, "No matter how good a dog we have, I am always a little nervous going in ... but I would take 45 into any dog alive, or any dog I have seen, and not be nervous at all."

I never got the impression MOK was lying, or exaggerating; I got the impression he was simply that blown away with a once-in-a-lifetime animal ... that (due to his ability + ownership) never was able to realize his potential.

He said 45 was super-fast, extremely strong, and would not get bit ... and could kill you in less than :20 with his head hold. I am quite sure he couldn't have done that 10x in a row, but his sister (Jackson's Ch Violent) made Champion also, on gameness (she beat The Old Man we both know in 1:53). So the gameness was there too, in the sister at least, and 45 was 10x the physical specimen (and had 10x the mouth) as his game, Champion sister.

My point, is if Jackson's 45 was as game as he was BAD (and he had a license to be, bred like he was), he could have been an immortal in the right hands ... and would have been one helluva tough dog to beat in anyone's hands

I also knew MOK. I've known Jr Bush for over 20 years, along with some of his closest friends from showing dogs back in the 60s. Jr always had one of two things. He either had a top quality dog or he had one of the lowest quality dogs you could think to see, but it never bothered Jr. He just loved doing what he did.

A lot of guys are like that, just do dogs to do dogs.

That being said, I also believe that Indian Sonny would've probably made a better quality dog over the years of breeding. But like all who agreed, there would be so many top quality dogs that would've never existed. Even with Pat selling dogs, it's hard to argue with the success he had by breeding those dogs. I've never bought a dog from Pat, and while I've pondered it a time or two, I never really come close to doing so, but I would buy a dog from Indian Sonny if given the chance knowing what I know about his dogs and how he liked his dogs.

Well said.

Given the right type of Eli dog, it can add a lot to your program if you're able to keep it going as needed. Being as the dogs I've bred, at this point, are based around the Eli/Redboy/Honeybunch scenario, it's hard to argue with the way those dogs are headed now with the proper molding and breeding decisions. I would be hard pressed to take any Maloney bred dogs over Jasper for any reason.

I have always thought of Eli dogs as "a cur line" and the Bolio-type dogs as "a game line" ... but I realize how simple-minded this is now. Some of the rankest of curs I have ever seen were "pure Bolio dogs" ...

This is why I posted what I did, to get people to THINK about their own foundations: if the two lines you're mixing can't stand up as individual, pure lines ... then why use them at all?

Without reiterating what I have already said, even though I had a very good win/loss record as a breeder, if I could go back in time and re-do some of my foundational decisions, I would NOT have used lines/individuals who were not themselves capable of standing alone and winning on their own merits.

The more I think about it, the enemy of THE BEST isn't "the bad" ... it is The GOOD.

People tend to stop when they get something "good" ... and thereby never really achieve THE BEST they can do

Some lines are never able to achieve anything; they're simply not competitive nor are they bred to be;
Some lines are only able to achieve 0-2xWs, with an occasional VERY RARE Champion (Clouse, Hemphill, etc.);
Some lines are able to achieve 1-3xWs, with the occasional 5xW;

Most people stop there at that level ... and consider that "the best" they can do.
They're able to compete with any other dogmen, so why not stop there?

What I am talking about is, looking back at history, seeing the BEST dogs of all time, performance-wise, and trying to analyze which repeated and consistent combinations (not flukes) were put together to produce them?

NO ONE can produce all Champions ... or all 5x - 9x winners ... but my point is SOME mixes produce quite a lot of 3x-5xWs ... with (comparatively) frequent 6-8x winners ... as opposed to other combinations ... and these "elite crosses" are almost invariably Eli/Carver crosses of some kind, NOT "Bolio/Clouse" dogs, RBJ dogs, Jeep/Redboy, etc. These are but mid-level achievers, that always seem to lose huge Ch v Ch fights with equal-level Eli/Carver dogs.

Because, almost invariably, it is the Eli- or Eli/Carver combinations of some sort that are the true multi-multi-winners in our sport.

It is a subtle, but perceptible reality that I am just "thinking out loud" about, that's all.

Jack

[FrostyPaws]

If you knew where 45 was when he was active, and wanted to see him go into "something you thought more of," you could have always stepped up to the plate yourself

Rather simple really. I don't fuck with hoodrats, undesirables, etc. I quit doing that years ago simply because it was already a calculated risk doing things with people I knew for years. I certainly wasn't going to risk my livelihood with people I didn't know. I also don't remember the dog's weight now, though I'm sure I did at that point.

Most people match dogs to win. If BBC didn't think he could beat your Bullet dog, after losing to him, that would be a good reason not to match, lol

He didn't lose to Bullet. He lost to Dolly.

I have always thought of Eli dogs as "a cur line" and the Bolio-type dogs as "a game line" ... but I realize how simple-minded this is now. Some of the rankest of curs I have ever seen were "pure Bolio dogs" ...

So did I, and I still do. My foray into that line of dogs did nothing but make that fact even more clear in my mind. Likewise, some of the rankest curs I've seen were Redboy dogs, but given that's what I primarily fed through the years, that's going to happen.