I would have to disagree with you jack on me skipping some steps. I dont think i skipped anything at all. Made a mistake in judgement by putting two greenies together when i know better... yeah, took shortcuts... no sir. Shortcuts wont get my yard where I want it to be. If anything, I feel like im setting a standard. Again jack these hounds are 3 years old. Both of them. I gave in on hound A because of your example with ch vengenance... not gave in but realized hey maybe im being a little hasty.... on the other hand, hound b IMO is a cull. she is 3 years old and with limited space, she has to go. If chinaman or dibo was in my possesion and didnt start at three years old, they would be "walking the green mile" however, im not breeding a family of dogs... i just got a couple bulldogs guys....