Good post EWO.
Yes. Low $$ reflects an honest, working-man price and target market.
No. Selling cheap pups is a disgrace to the breed, and to yourself, to sell at "newspaper" prices.
Good post EWO.
Some "prospects" are more likely to go places than others ... and some prospects are worth/sold for a lot more than $1500.Originally Posted by gotap_d
Further, the ability to "win a match" is child's play compared to the ability to produce match dogs, especially at a top level
In other words, you can take the "golden egg" to market, but the price for the egg isn't anywhere near the price someone would pay for the goose that can lay them
People who buy dogs intelligently aren't looking to buy a mere match dog; they're looking to set themselves up to produce ELITE-LEVEL match dogs forever ... which they will be able to do if they make the right choices ...
Jack
That is perhaps the best way Nut.
Agreed.
Agreed.
As Gotap said, some "working men" make a boatload more than other working men.
Wealth does not make someone a good dogman, but poverty does not make a buyer attractive.
There is no Yes vote yet ...
I disagree. The seller dictates the price. No one is going to tell me what to sell my pups for.
The buyer merely will agree to pay the price or not.
Truly good breeders are a scarce commodity, and there will always be buyers who will pay what a truly good breeder is asking.
Now, if somebody is a nobody he may have trouble selling his stock, but no breeder of consistent winners is going to have much trouble selling ...
Economically-speaking, the amount of time, effort, and cost has to be factored into the process of breeding/feeding/raising pups ... plus one's years of experience in making mistakes, getting it right, and then maintaining a successful line ... ALL have to be taken into account to properly-assess the worth of a set of pups.
If Joe Schmoe bought two ill-bred dogs from his local redneck friend, which are a mix of a buncha different lines, and neither one of these bozos ever bred a winner, and there isn't a breeding pattern established for there to be a reasonable expectation of producing ability ... then there is no one in their right minds that is going to buy that crap. Price SHOULD have to do with a realistic expectation of getting a world class dog or of being able to reliably and consistently produce world class dogs.
Because if you are buying a linebred animal, from a breeder who reliably and consistently puts people in the winner's circle, you absolutely should be willing to pay that breeder 3-5x as much for a pup like "that" than a pup from the other guy.
Well, you must not have actually voted, because no one has voted yes yet.
The trouble with your theory EWO is it is not factoring in SKILL as a breeder
Price doesn't determine worth, perceived value determines worth.
Nobody running mix-bred mongrels, and never having bred a winner, is going to have built-up perceived value in what they're selling ... whereas a guy who has produced exceptionally-game, consistently-winning stock, year-after-year *is* going to have the perceived value of his stock be 2-5x more valuable than the average palooka.
Sure, if you keep going up, maybe no one would pay $5,000 for a pup, but many people will pay a topshelf breeder $1000-$2000 for a pup (2x-4x the "average price" from a nobody).
As well they should. The top breeder's pups are at least that much more likely to make a positive impact on someone's program.
And that right there is the bottom line: perceived value.
And perceived value basically has to do with YOUR CALCULATED ODDS of getting what you really want in a dog ... and, if you're really thinking, its long-term ability to produce what you want in your program.
Jack
I personally do not place much value on other folks puppies. Not taking away from those individuals being put together to create the puppies. The parents may be truly exceptional individuals, but their ability to pass those traits on may not be determined until they are gone often times, and that is why my opinion lies here.
As far as the market (seen by me the perspective buyer) goes, I've always placed more value on a stud. As the results are generally apparent far before that of puppies.
I did not answer the poll even though I lean more toward "no", as I've never sold puppies. And I don't look at bulldogs as a business at all.
How well a dog actually produces is often determined after they're gone, true.
But how well a dog is likely to produce is very easy to figure out, with a high degree of accuracy, if one knows what they're looking at (performance and pedigree-wise).
If you have a legitimately-game dog, with exceptional ability in some key areas (stamina/intelligence), and if that dog has a high-percentage of littermates like that, and comes from two proven-producing, high % parents of a known prepotent bloodline, your odds of getting good dogs by breeding this specimen (especially linebreeding this specimen) are pretty much a sure thing.
However, if you have an unknown-ability/gameness dog, off of a low % litter, bred off unchecked (random-bred) parents ... who likewise came from unknown or low-percentage background ... your odds of success at the top of the food chain are almost assuredly going to be zero.
There have been some great success stories that began with key studs ... but also plenty who have begun with key bitches.
I think legit prepotency of the line, in back of legit quality/percentages-in-litter,are BOTH the necessary foundation of a good stud or bitch.
How did you get your first dogs, if not via buying them from someone who was selling?
Jack
They were given to me, and in 20 years with bulldogs I just purchased my 2nd dog only because she is of the same blood that I use and will benefit me if she is able to have pups.
Her breeder died unexpectedly, and it was a benefit to me as well as his living family. That is what led me to the decision to purchase the dog and drive over 1200 miles round trip to pick her up. Otherwise I may not have purchased her.
You see Jack, I honestly have never liked looking at bulldogs as a business. I think these dogs suffer enough at the hands of unqualified people who think they are dogmen. I feel very fortunate to have landed in a pile of pretty all around decent folks who's dogs for the most part were top priority.
But I'm no fool and I do see the need for top notch breeders such as yourself who offer well bred, healthy well cared for puppies to an ever growing market. But on the same token, as much as it is a disgrace to offer a quality pup for dollar store prices. It is also a disgrace that same pup at top shelf prices lands (often times) in the hands of a wealthy fool.
S_B
There is a lot of truth in all of what you said ...
No matter how much or how little someone pays for a pup we all know they all don't turn out. An the old saying is still true to this day the good one's are where you find them. I got most of my pups and older dogs from 1 person. He guarantee to replace a pup that didn't turn out to do what he said it should. The guarantee kept me going back. Then the price started going down. Over time I didn't need nothing but gas money to go an pick them up.
Hear this all the time. And, in a sense, it's true.
However, they especially don't all turn out when you breed low-percentage, ill-bred dogs together. (Not saying you, but in general.)
By contrast, you can fix your gene pool to where you get all (or most all) of them to turn out, IF you linebreed off excellent individuals, from high-percentage litters.
There are certain dogs that produce so well, MOST of what they put down is game ... and even when you face one of the few curs ... they don't just roll over, you really gotta really whip them too ... if you can.
Hear this all the time, and in a sense that's true too ... but still addled.
Many people are confused as to "how" to produce good dogs ... hence all they talk about is "finding" good dogs, since they can't figure out how to reliably produce them.
But some people really do know how to produce good dogs, all the time, in every litter. They have the gene pool to do this, and the knowledge of how to manage it, so they can keep doing this.
After my third year breeding dogs, I never at any time, had problems producing BY FAR more good dogs tham bad, and by a country mile.
Time and again I have seen people come out with stuff that can't even be properly called "bulldogs," so far are they from legitimately good dogs.
I could see how folks like that are always trying to "find" good dogs, but I know (not "think," KNOW) I will always *always* be able to produce more game dogs than bad dogs, every single time I make a breeding, bar none.
And if a person can't say that, they're working with the wrong stuff IMO.
Not saying you, but just in general.
I have had a replacement guarantee also ... and almost never have had to use it.
The thing that kept people coming back to me wasn't "all the curs" I replaced () ... it was the fact what they bought was game and good ... and they wanted MORE of that
And that's the way it should be
Once a person proves themselves a good handler/caregiver, most breeders will give them dogs, let them breed to their studs, etc.
Jack
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