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Thread: DEBATE ON DEX / SOLU-DELTA / CORTICO-STEROIDS

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  1. #1
    One of the problems, I think, in accurately quantifying these 'studies' is the lack of controllable uniformity in what can be called "Traumatic Shock"

    If we pull out the ol' microscope, and examine this term itself, we soon realize there is NO WAY to get a uniform sampling for error-free, controlled study.
    There are simply too many variables, and I think this is why there have NOT been such controlled studies: there is no way TO control the damages.
    It is one thing to purposely let 40% of the blood volume out of 2 groups of dogs, and get uniform, controlled studies like that, because of the ease in achieving uniformity of the challenge.
    It is quite another to call all dog fights "the same," as they can involve an almost endless array of potential injuries/trauma ...

    That last link that I posted has "hit by car, dog fights," etc. ... AS IF all dog fights are "the same" ... but ARE THEY?

    I might have a dog that went 1.5 hours, and is "shocky," but he might have been on the ear the whole time, almost never got bit, but became "shocky" just from a combination of fatigue, coming in dry, and having a bleeder hit at the :20 mark. When correctly assessed, he really isn't "injured" at all, but has merely bled out and become too exhausted/dehydrated, to the point of shock.

    On the other hand, I might have a second dog who was in a brutal, non-stop WAR with another dog, been bit in the guts, deep in the throat, become truly traumatized ... and is SWELLING BADLY in these deadly areas ...

    Now then, both of these dogs were in "dog fights," per se, but yet each of them has had drastically-different injury levels

    The first dog, because he's dehydrated, we would not use the Hypertonic Saline approach (as it's contra-indicated for dehydration), but we absolutely would want to give him ringers to restore lost fluids (a blood transfusion would be even better). Ideally, the first dog may well be able to be stabilized just fine without the use of steroids at all, just ringers, or a transfusion, and maybe some antibiotics.

    However, the second dog, with all that FLESH TRAUMA + SWELLING in his throat/windpipe/guts, you bet your ass I'd be running a massive dose of Solu-Medrol (or even dexamethosone sodium phosphate) into that dog, so he doesn't blow-up like a bullfrog in his throat. Therefore, here again, it becomes a judgment call on the part of the owner ... and having somewhat of an understanding of WHAT THESE DRUGS DO ... and analyzing EXACTLY WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE DOG ... become the keys to making the right choices.

    As with tailoring a conditioning regimen around the dog's strengths/weaknesses, so too must the medic tailor his aftercare choices around what has actually happened to his dog. To write a tiny paragraph about "trauma" and to lump all "dog fights" into one heading is shallow, at best. The truth is, it is absolutely MULTI-DIMENSIONAL what happens to any dog in a fight ... and each dog needs to be assessed individually as to what procedures should be followed, based on what has actually happened to that dog.

    Jack

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by CA Jack View Post
    One of the problems, I think, in accurately quantifying these 'studies' is the lack of controllable uniformity in what can be called "Traumatic Shock"

    If we pull out the ol' microscope, and examine this term itself, we soon realize there is NO WAY to get a uniform sampling for error-free, controlled study.
    There are simply too many variables, and I think this is why there have NOT been such controlled studies: there is no way TO control the damages.
    It is one thing to purposely let 40% of the blood volume out of 2 groups of dogs, and get uniform, controlled studies like that, because of the ease in achieving uniformity of the challenge.
    It is quite another to call all dog fights "the same," as they can involve an almost endless array of potential injuries/trauma ...

    That last link that I posted has "hit by car, dog fights," etc. ... AS IF all dog fights are "the same" ... but ARE THEY?

    I might have a dog that went 1.5 hours, and is "shocky," but he might have been on the ear the whole time, almost never got bit, but became "shocky" just from a combination of fatigue, coming in dry, and having a bleeder hit at the :20 mark. When correctly assessed, he really isn't "injured" at all, but has merely bled out and become too exhausted/dehydrated, to the point of shock.

    On the other hand, I might have a second dog who was in a brutal, non-stop WAR with another dog, been bit in the guts, deep in the throat, become truly traumatized ... and is SWELLING BADLY in these deadly areas ...

    Now then, both of these dogs were in "dog fights," per se, but yet each of them has had drastically-different injury levels

    The first dog, because he's dehydrated, we would not use the Hypertonic Saline approach (as it's contra-indicated for dehydration), but we absolutely would want to give him ringers to restore lost fluids (a blood transfusion would be even better). Ideally, the first dog may well be able to be stabilized just fine without the use of steroids at all, just ringers, or a transfusion, and maybe some antibiotics.

    However, the second dog, with all that FLESH TRAUMA + SWELLING in his throat/windpipe/guts, you bet your ass I'd be running a massive dose of Solu-Medrol (or even dexamethosone sodium phosphate) into that dog, so he doesn't blow-up like a bullfrog in his throat. Therefore, here again, it becomes a judgment call on the part of the owner ... and having somewhat of an understanding of WHAT THESE DRUGS DO ... and analyzing EXACTLY WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE DOG ... become the keys to making the right choices.

    As with tailoring a conditioning regimen around the dog's strengths/weaknesses, so too must the medic tailor his aftercare choices around what has actually happened to his dog. To write a tiny paragraph about "trauma" and to lump all "dog fights" into one heading is shallow, at best. The truth is, it is absolutely MULTI-DIMENSIONAL what happens to any dog in a fight ... and each dog needs to be assessed individually as to what procedures should be followed, based on what has actually happened to that dog.

    Jack
    I don't think all fights are exactly the same, no. I do think a great majority of them are the same in regards to actual damage and exhaustion instead of any type of shock. When I sit here and think about everything I've seen in relation to these dogs, I think I've seen no more than 10 dogs that I believe were actually in shock and not just at a point of exhaustion. Do I think there are times to use some of those drugs? Yes I do, but I don't believe it's after every long, hard show a dog may have as I've seen too many dogs handle those shows with just fluids, and some of those dogs were hanging around death's door.

    I don't think many people are able to make a distinction between sheer exhaustion and shock, and that included me at one point in time. I think for 98% of the shows out there, dex or any anti-inflammatory isn't a MUST have drug. It's not a bad idea to have them on hand if the dog is actually IN shock, and at this point, I think people should learn what shock actually is and what the signs/symptoms of such a process are. If not, they could be causing more overall harm than good to their dogs.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyPaws View Post
    I don't think all fights are exactly the same, no. I do think a great majority of them are the same in regards to actual damage and exhaustion instead of any type of shock. When I sit here and think about everything I've seen in relation to these dogs, I think I've seen no more than 10 dogs that I believe were actually in shock and not just at a point of exhaustion.
    Hmmm, I can think of several dogs I have seen with unresponsive pupils dilated, etc. Some that would hardly blink when their eyes were touched, etc.



    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyPaws View Post
    Do I think there are times to use some of those drugs? Yes I do, but I don't believe it's after every long, hard show a dog may have as I've seen too many dogs handle those shows with just fluids, and some of those dogs were hanging around death's door.
    Clearly, fluids and antibiotics are numero uno.

    I agree that not every dog that goes the long haul is in shock, sure.

    Yet, I believe every one of them could still benefit from the anti-inflammatory properties of something like dex. Not at the shock doses, but general doses given to reduce swelling, pain, and discomfort.

    Again, all based on individual assessment.



    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyPaws View Post
    I don't think many people are able to make a distinction between sheer exhaustion and shock, and that included me at one point in time.
    I am sure this is true.



    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyPaws View Post
    I think for 98% of the shows out there, dex or any anti-inflammatory isn't a MUST have drug.
    I would have to disagree.

    Some, yes.
    98%, no.

    I hear what you're saying (most dogs quit before they're in shock), so the winner will be able to survive just fine on fluids/antibiotics, I get that.

    But to say the winner doen't really need anti-inflammatory? I can't agree with that.

    Anti-inflammatories may not be critical for their survival, but they absolutely WILL reduce swelling and not make them have to go through painful, swollen hell.

    Again, you may not always have to give the shock dose, but SOME anti-inflammatory will make their recovery easier, I absolutely know this to be true.



    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyPaws View Post
    It's not a bad idea to have them on hand if the dog is actually IN shock, and at this point, I think people should learn what shock actually is and what the signs/symptoms of such a process are. If not, they could be causing more overall harm than good to their dogs.
    I agree with this: I think the SHOCK DOSE of these drugs should be used judiciously. But I think the use of the swelling dose should be given after every single match, because that dog has HOLES and SWELLING ... and will be swollen/stiff as hell without them.

    We do agree that the SHOCK doses of these drugs should hardly ever be given ...

    Thanks,

    Jack

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