breeding theory

[Kimo615]

Thanks brotha...yea that's exactly what I'm doing. Asking around...getting fact and opinion. Doing some research. Can't believe everything you read on the net. That's why I'm trying to engage in conversation about it with legit dogmen and finding someone who knows about him and other dogs that is a honest person. Honesty is a hard thing to find anywhere now days. Especially in this hobby. I do appreciate your comments and everyone who posted. But...there's only so much info out there. I know he's being bred with machete...my buddy got a pup this year out of Momo and machete. Momo was sired by Ceaser. So far the pup looks good. Again...just like mine...to young to tell. I've seen Momo and Ceaser. Both look great. Momo is Ch also. How either are as producers I dont know. This is my first venture into this bloodline so I'm a sponge at the moment so to say on the lines genetics and anything else that may do with the line. I hate starting over! Lol. I never was big time...just eat sleep and breath apbt as a hobby. I'm gonna keep prowling...see what I can learn or uncover. I'm still listening if anyone has anything on the bloodline in general or Ceaser and Crocodile.

[realpitsnobull]

What up kimo it don't matter if he quit or not does not mean the pup you buy will do the same and let's all be real dog men a lot of good dogs have quit!! Alot at some point and time for different reason if they around long enough . u got 2 great dogs draws can be rare. Your dog got its own history to make.

[TFX]

a lot of good dogs have quit!! .

Suit yourself, but that is kind of the point I stop calling them "good dogs". Plenty of talented dogs have quit, plenty of famous dogs have quit, and plenty of quitters have become decent producers. A good dog in my book is a game dog, period.

[realpitsnobull]

Suit yourself, but that is kind of the point I stop calling them "good dogs". Plenty of talented dogs have quit, plenty of famous dogs have quit, and plenty of quitters have become decent producers. A good dog in my book is a game dog, period.

Well your book will be missing some of the best dogs that ever walked the earth cause maybe they were bested or had a bad day! But like u sd suit yourself.

[TFX]

No, I am not missing anything. "My book" is already a very proven commodity that has stood the test of time, which can be attested to by to those fanciers who are in the know. You won't find a single dog who quit in any pedigree of a living dog my kennel bred for at least 5-6 generations, because I have owned or known every dog in the pedigrees for that long. Yes, I have some losers in my pedigrees, but they damn sure never quit. There have been a couple of exceptions where a segment of my line was bred and then had a quitting loss after a breeding was made. Any such segment has been completely abandoned as brood stock. Likewise with the any segment where at least half of the litter were not game dogs. This isn't mere theory, or speculation, or pipe dreams on my part, this is an absolute fact. There are maybe 1 or 2% of breeders out there who actually know how to breed dogs well, and of those breeders most of them don't make a habit of breeding dogs who "had a bad day". There may be situations that warrant an exception, but it certainly isn't the rule. "The best dogs that walked the earth" didn't quit, rest assured of that.

[Kimo615]

Hey Realpits, your right man. I'm not worried really on if he quit and my pup being a quitter as its proven than dogs that quit or curr can still produce. So I guess I got a 50/50 shot at getting a good bulldog out of the breeding. I was mainly wondering about Ceaser and Crocodile both and asking if anyone knows or has seen them perform. Maybe even have pups off either and opinions on Ceaser and Croc as producers. From what I understand, Croc himself as what I'm told is "Great". That's why he was doubled up on in his last breeding. That's about all I know on him other than his blood is highly sought after in Mexico and on the West Coast. (Little Gator) blood that is. Crocs a 50/50 Chinaman/Little Gator Dog. Ceaser heavy Frisco and is breeding back to Machete which is heavy Frisco to. Just dont know much else about either.

[STA8541]

About "good dogs" quitting:

Suit yourself, but that is kind of the point I stop calling them "good dogs"...A good dog in my book is a game dog, period.

I like this. I really, really like this. Isn't it true that you need gameness as a foundation for your yard? Before & above anything else? I'm just spitballing here, but can't you "layer on" whatever traits you might like to have in your dogs, whereas gameness...that's pretty much irreplaceable, isn't it? I always thought that was supposed to be at the bottom of all bulldogs, regardless of how hard he can bite or how powerful a wrestler or how smart he is or etc. I'll be the first one to admit I am no breeder, but to me you spell bulldog G...A...M...E. That's just me, though.

[Officially Retired]

Well, let's pretend for a moment that gameness is "absolute" (which it isn't), but to say talent doesn't matter is wrong IMO.

I have always selected for extreme gameness in my breeding choices (Hammer, the Hollingsworth dogs, No Regrets, etc.) ... but only when I also selected for a winning style did my win/loss record as a breeder begin to skyrocket.

Selecting for "gameness only" ... my win record for the first couple of years was just at 57% ...

When I begin to put some combat theory into the mix, and specifically select for a controlling head style, that would pace itself, then my record quickly went up over 75% ... and hasn't been below 80%, in any year, for well over 15 years now.

So Talent is definitely important too.

People who only breed to dogs they beat the hell out of, that "live and scratch" through their ordeals, will NEVER have a record much over 50%, I don't believe.

[STA8541]

Well, let's pretend for a moment that gameness is "absolute" (which it isn't), but to say talent doesn't matter is wrong IMO.

I have always selected for extreme gameness in my breeding choices (Hammer, the Hollingsworth dogs, No Regrets, etc.) ... but only when I also selected for a winning style did my win/loss record as a breeder begin to skyrocket.

Selecting for "gameness only" ... my win record for the first couple of years was just at 57% ...

When I begin to put some combat theory into the mix, and specifically select for a controlling head style, that would pace itself, then my record quickly went up over 75% ... and hasn't been below 80%, in any year, for well over 15 years now.

So Talent is definitely important too.

People who only breed to dogs they beat the hell out of, that "live and scratch" through their ordeals, will NEVER have a record much over 50%, I don't believe.

Fair enough. You can make any dog that ever lived quit, if you try hard enough. I've heard of all kinds of talented, frontrunning curs that are "just game enough" not to quit while they are ahead. Let them get a little fatigued, a little dominated, a little tired, a little thirsty, etc., & you see them sing a different tune. Jack, you are one of the breeders that, from what I have seen thus far, were definitely shooting for gameness (while ladling on all the other bits like controlling head style, etc.). TFX is definitely another guy who looks for gameness in his stock, based on his posts. And I can barely get my head out of your Hollingsworth book! Those pups seemed like (mostly) hella game beasts. But I know if you are looking for a match prospect, yes, having some level of ability can do nothing but increase your chances of winning, so long as he's got that deep gameness we (should) all treasure.

Incidentally, is that what you mean by the term "stupid game?" Just a no-talent plug that will keep scratching to a killing?

[Officially Retired]

Fair enough. You can make any dog that ever lived quit, if you try hard enough. I've heard of all kinds of talented, frontrunning curs that are "just game enough" not to quit while they are ahead. Let them get a little fatigued, a little dominated, a little tired, a little thirsty, etc., & you see them sing a different tune. Jack, you are one of the breeders that, from what I have seen thus far, were definitely shooting for gameness (while ladling on all the other bits like controlling head style, etc.). TFX is definitely another guy who looks for gameness in his stock, based on his posts. And I can barely get my head out of your Hollingsworth book! Those pups seemed like (mostly) hella game beasts. But I know if you are looking for a match prospect, yes, having some level of ability can do nothing but increase your chances of winning, so long as he's got that deep gameness we (should) all treasure.
Incidentally, is that what you mean by the term "stupid game?" Just a no-talent plug that will keep scratching to a killing?

I don't want to breed to "front running curs" ether.

Basically, I look for a dog that never makes a bad move while he's doing the things I like to see dogs do.

If the dog gets that far away look in his eye, or in any way loses his focus or intensity, then I don't trust that dog anymore.

I stopped "game testing" my dogs in the mid-90s. By that I mean, beating the dogshit out of them and then seeing "if they scratch" to a total asswhipping.

To me this is stupid and abusive.

What I do is just see how my dogs look and perform and act while having a legitimate tussle with something GOOD their weight.

If they can go and go and go, and either win (or get picked up in a close one) still having total focus, then to me they are game enough to be competitive with whatever is out there.

The first shitty sign I see, I no longer have any interest in that dog. I don't need to beat the quit out of him.

Once I see any lack of total focus, I no longer trust or want that animal.

I don't have to beat up any dog to the point of disfigurement or whatnot to "see" gameness in him (or shit in him). All I have to do is roll him out with what I know is a damned good dog ... and watch that dog's performance like a hawk ... to see if that dog is competitive, and seriously focused enough, to be in open competition.

The rest is intangibles, shape, health, etc. that no one can plan for.

Jack