Quote Originally Posted by QCKLime
That's a good reply, VDK, and I agree to an extent. You can only know so much about a breeding by looking at it on paper (Spyder is a VERY nicely bred bitch, btw, some of the stuff that I love in there), but to me, that breeding is still a "cross", even though it directs back to very similar ancestors for the simple reason that BOTH of those lines have been so well line- bred and maintained (especially in this particular instance) that the dogs don't resemble each other very much anymore.

The mainstay "traits" of heavy Chinaman dogs vs. heavy "Carver" dogs are very different, in EVERY specimen I've seen of both, so there's something to gain and lose in the hand off of what traits your male has and what traits your female possesses. Very different from taking two similarly bred dogs, known for similar traits, that carry said traits, and line or inbreeding in an effort to preserve those traits.

Now, that's just my opinion, and obviously I don't know your two individual dogs personally, this may not apply to them at all -- but as LINES, they are different. If you go far enough back, you're bound to intersect at some point with the great dogs of the past that SO MANY of our present day dogs are down from, but it doesn't necessarily prevent them from being a "cross" in a modern breeding. You have to decide when that ancestry is a moot point. A friend of mine and I were just corresponding about this the other day, after I referred to my dogs as "Banjo/Bolio crosses" because Banjo is essentially an inbred Butcherboy dog, and Bolio and Butcherboy are comprised of all the same dogs, or siblings thereof, just inverted. He asserted that it works so well because it isn't really a "cross" at all, and why it may blend well together now because it's originated and funneled through similar bred dogs, I still consider it a cross as well, as my heavy Bolio dogs are nothing AT ALL like my heavy Banjo dogs.

I understand what your saying and agree with most of it. Before I knew Spyder's traits I thought it was a 50/50 cross even though they did both go back to same ancestors. What changed my opinion is the fact that while Spyder doesnt actually have Chinaman in her ped she is similiar in traits and characteristics through years and years of the breeder making a similiar cross to the one that created him (Eli/Carver). Now im not sure if that was the intended outcome of his breeding program or if the dogs she is down from are as similiar to him historically as she is (I do know they are said to share a high % of his style), and I do know her traits and thats why I decided to breed her to my Frisco/Spike stud. Now I totally agree with the fact that dogs can have damn near identical ancestors with completely different traits, but thats not the case here. See on paper this breeding looks more like a cross then linebreeding, but characteristically its more like linebreeding. Both dogs are generations removed from one another and common ancestors of the other, but carry similiar traits and compliment eachothers few weaknesses. And the offspring created off this breeding while young still show many physical characteristics of Chinaman dogs and or the early Frisco offspring. Do I call them Chinaman dogs?? No that would be absurd, but I feel while they may have Frisco up front they more resemble physically and genetically the cross that created Chinaman. Except with an added shot of Bolio.. 8-) The is jmo based on what I know about my dogs. Do I think that a Frisco/Spike stud bred to another heavy Carver/Eli bitch would be the same? No not even close. But I think that when you know your dogs and the traits they carry ( pass on in Apollo's case) then you can more accurately breed them in the direction your aiming without shooting blindly or worrying to much about how it looks on paper. Again this is JMO and I dont claim to be any kind of expert.

Vdk

Edit: Oh and QCKLIME what if characteristically your heavy Banjo and heavy Bolio dogs were similiar? Theoretically speaking of course. Would breeding them together then make it linebreeding in your opinion? Im not trying to push my thoughts on you just curious. Seeing as how you said they share many ancestors already. If they shared the same physical characteristics would it waiver your thought process? Again if not thats cool as we all think differently. But im just curious.