@ Jack,
Of course I can recognize basic emotions a dog has. But saying they are destructive because they want to be with you is placing your emotions onto what you believe that dog is feeling.
Not the same as seeing a dog wag his tail when he sees you, or the ones you described above.
You actually are the one saying I said things that I didn't.Originally Posted by S_B
First you say I am giving dogs "human" emotions, when I didn't (there's no need as they have dog emotions).
Now you're saying that I believe my conclusion is "the same" as a dog wagging its tail, but I didn't say that either
My conclusion does not have to be "the same" in order to be accurate. If I have a dog that is a barking, hole-digging freak outside ... but is calm and doting when brought inside ... I can form the very realistic deduction that the animal just wanted to be indoors with me.
You can disagree with my conclusion, but I am neither ascribing "my" emotions to the animal, nor do I have "no reason" to conclude what I've concluded. Quite frankly, I have every reason to believe as I do and no reason to believe any differently.
Jack
I will say that none of ours were ever intolerable in the house. There was the usual barking and hell-raising when they saw one of the house dogs, but short of that, nothing. If we crated the house dogs away from the visitors, the visitors would run the house with no issues and would act like they'd been inside forever.
When the chain dogs would come in at various times, they were always content just to be inside, even if in a crate. Not one of them ever chewed out of a crate to be free if we were gone.
Sure they want attention. I have one who always pies in his doghouse when i put straw in. So i put a blanket in there and now he pies outside. But, when i take one of the other dogs for a walk he would drag his blanket out of the doghouse. He won't for another reason, lol. 100% a form of protest.
My little Amazon bitch is extremely loyal, and is a massive protester--vocally--fortunately without being physically destructive.
If I so much as touch my keys, Amazon runs to the door "looking at me" to see when WE are going for a ride
If I leave without her, she will bark continuously ... from the moment I close the door behind me ... to the moment I return (neighbors say that can be in excess of 3-4 hours).
If I do take Amazon with me, she will be forever fighting me to "sit on my lap" ... and she is gamer about saying, "Yes," to that idea than I am to saying, "No."
And THE MOMENT my tires hit the entrance way of a store, and I slow down, she will start to go apeshit and will begin her yodel (wa-wa-wa-wa!), as if she sees a dog on the other side, and will really go apeshit once I pull to a stop.
It is almost a life-and-death fight for me to be able to get out of the car and NOT have her dive out of the car with me ...
And she screams so loud, once I'm out, that everyone within 200 feet looks our way, and all I can do is laugh and shake my head and say, "She wants to be with her daddy," to which most folks laugh back.
Now "The Diamond Girl Triplets" (Little D, Dirty Diamond, and Diamond Girl) would also experience a deep desire to be with me ... and, rather than just "yodel" when I left, they would ALL pretty much wreck stuff in the house, and couldn't really be kept inside. Of the 3 of them, Dirty Diamond was the most tolerable, but all of them would chew, dig, ruin dog houses ... eat, chew, or obsessively lick the inside of a crate ... yet all of them were quiet as church mice inside if I was home ... but they didn't handle "when I left" very well
Amazon is a pain in the ass, noise-wise, but she doesn't destroy anything.
Jack
I can deal with a lot from a hound but I do not like a house killer or a chain fighter. I had this one dog who was very very well bred. He would kill a dog house with no problem. So to stop him I got some stuff from the feed store made for horses to spray on his house and I would spray it once a week. But this same dog would bark all the time, fight his chain and if he had a bone or food in his crate you could forget getting him out until he was ready or he would try and eat your arse up. I can't have that with my kids around so I had to see if he was worth the trouble. He turned out to be a screaming CUR.
Jack since this thread isn't about animal emotions per say, we will have to debate this on another thread.Are you saying you can't tell when a dog is happy? Sad? Pissed off? Guilty? Nervous? Etc.?
Got news for ya: those are emotions
But as far as a dog being driven because they destroy their hardware in pursuit of "freeing" themselves from a chain as you say is, well, kind of silly in my opinion.
And I can't be convinced that an animal who relentlessly chews on hard metal chain links breaking all of their teeth which they need for survival is smart. That is the complete opposite as I see it. (I know dogs can survive without teeth) But in the wild, how many predators are toothless and thriving
I do have very spirited dogs who are very animated and demand my attention though, but without the self destructive behavior.
I just see no point in keeping these self destructive dogs around, it's a waste of money and sanity for me personally. But take no issue with those who enjoy those types of dogs, different strokes for different folks.
S_B
You kids should play nice or somebody is gonna start crying.
OkayJack since this thread isn't about animal emotions per say, we will have to debate this on another thread.
Why is it silly? I have seen dogs lift their chain up off a nail that it was hooked on.
Is it silly to say the dog freed itself there too, or is it sillier to deny the obvious?
Again, you blur so many things in your own thinking, it's hard to carry on a discussion.And I can't be convinced that an animal who relentlessly chews on hard metal chain links breaking all of their teeth which they need for survival is smart. That is the complete opposite as I see it. (I know dogs can survive without teeth) But in the wild, how many predators are toothless and thriving
I don't think dogs think that far into the future. I think dogs have basic, simple thoughts ... not complex ones.
Dogs have a basic want to be free ... or ... they have a basic want to be with their owner.
But I don't think dogs ever consider the long-term ramifications of repeated hole-digging, or root-tugging, on their teeth
Most of mine are like that too.
Hold on, I never said I "enjoyed" that type of dog ... far from it.
I too prefer tractable, low-maintenance dogs.
Silverback, for example, was a great keeper: never chewed a damned thing.
Never shit or pissed in the house. Never ate out of the trash can. Never chewed up shoes or anything else.
BY FAR, I wish all of my dogs were like Silverback (in a lot of other ways besides being a great companion and house dog) ... but what I am saying is I would not **kill** a dog who's destructive without first giving him a fair shake as an adult. Frosty said he did that, gave them a fair shake, which is the way it should be.
I don't know how this basic, simple premise got confounded into "I prefer hard-keepers," but that is far from what I said. One guy said he'd get rid of dogs with no teeth ... and I pointed out some incredibly bad-ass dogs with no teeth ... to AGAIN stress the point of NOT making decisions based on "teeth" ... or how hard they are to keep ... but on the merit of the dog.
This topic is about hard keepers.
My point is that hard keepers are sometimes GREAT dogs.
Everyone wants to come on here and say, "All their hard keepers weren't shit," well okay then, maybe so.
Or maybe they never really gave those dogs a truly fair shake ...
Regardless, bottom line is I've named some pretty badass dogs that WERE hard keepers and WERE freaking awesome dogs. Maybe my Icon dog was never matched, but Zukill and Robert T Jr. certainly were ... and the owner of Robert T Jr. called my Icon dog "Baby Robert T," so I assure you he was a helluva dog. Not sure how many of you have had 6xWinners that killed everything in under an hour, or 4xWs who beat four 4xWs (like Zuk and T Jr.), so these dogs were surely worth keeping in spite of not having teeth. That was my point.
IMO anyone who culls for anything other than performance is making questionable decisions.
At that point "an enjoyable yard" becomes a priority over unbiased analysis of the animals on that yard, which then opens-up a Pandora's Box of "what are we breeding for, then?"
Of course, as you pointed out, that is any man's prerogative on his own yard.
I have gladly sold some pretty annoying dogs myself. Sold, not killed.
MY point is, I would never shoot and kill a dog over its being annoying.
I would allow him to mature and give him a fair shake as an adult, before I ever made such a decision.
That is a far cry from saying I "prefer" annoying-ass dogs ... what I said was that some of my very best dogs were pretty fucking annoying
Jack
Ok Jack, now we agree on this, but my decision to not perpetuate a yard full of hole digging, house chewing chain fighters still stands.
I just simply stead clear of lines with those traits, no matter how great they may be. And I never said one wouldn't be allowed to mature before culling. And also as you stated, culling can also mean removing from your yard by selling that problem child to someone else, who doesn't mind keeping a dog like that.
Just like I stay away from lines of turning dogs, cold dogs and those killer "hard mouthed" dogs.
S_B
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