Bad Habits

[Officially Retired]

Just to add a punctuation mark:

If you decided to tie 2 people up to a chain by the neck, which one do you think would be the best overall fighter and human being?

1) The guy who sat there, dull-eyed and docile, never understanding why he couldn't go anywhere, and who never tried to get off the chain?;

or

2) The guy who knew that chain was holding him back, and who yanked all-day, all-night at the chain ... trying to break it any way he could ... never stopping in his effort to destroy that chain and get off it?

Which guy do you call "stupid" ... and which guy do you think has more "spirit"?

To me, some dogmen show that they don't really know much about dogs at all ... or much else for that matter.

Jack

[No Quarter Kennel]

Just to add a punctuation mark:

If you decided to tie 2 people up to a chain by the neck, which one do you think would be the best overall fighter and human being?

1) The guy who sat there, dull-eyed and docile, never understanding why he couldn't go anywhere, and who never tried to get off the chain?;

or

2) The guy who knew that chain was holding him back, and who yanked all-day, all-night at the chain ... trying to break it any way he could ... never stopping in his effort to destroy that chain and get off it?

Which guy do you call "stupid" ... and which guy do you think has more "spirit"?

To me, some dogmen show that they don't really know much about dogs at all ... or much else for that matter.

Jack

We've seen "intelligence" tied to gameness and ability, numerous times. MANY folks here agree with that.
In your example above, I would believe the MORE INTELLIGENT human is the one that knows, he cannot escaped a chain around his neck,,,,,,not by his own abilities anyways.
Just basing my opinion on the information given and not any assumptions.

[Officially Retired]

We've seen "intelligence" tied to gameness and ability, numerous times. MANY folks here agree with that.
In your example above, I would believe the MORE INTELLIGENT human is the one that knows, he cannot escaped a chain around his neck,,,,,,not by his own abilities anyways.
Just basing my opinion on the information given and not any assumptions.

So you're saying the gamest, most intelligent men in Alcatraz prison were the ones who "knew" they couldn't escape ... and sat around accepting their fate ... rather than the few who relentlessly tried and finally figured out how to do so?

I absolutely disagree.

I guess you think the gamest, smartest dog are also the ones who "know they can't win" ... and stop trying too? Again, I absolutely disagree.

The gamest, smartest ones are the ones who never stop trying and always figure some "way" to do what they want to do.

[S_B]

So you're saying the gamest, most intelligent men in Alcatraz prison were the ones who "knew" they couldn't escape ... and sat around accepting their fate ... rather than the few who relentlessly tried and finally figured out how to do so?

I absolutely disagree.

I won't compare human intelligence to that of a dog. There have been studies and theories, but bottom line, it is all educated guessing. I mean, why are we breeding them, and caring for them, if they are as intelligent as us, they'd take care of those basics things themselves. That's what they do in the wild, humans have stepped in to harness what they are selecting for.


Jack, I never saw Robert T, heard about the dog, but if he was really that bad M'fer, and had the nasty habits, which I have stated that I personally do not like. I would not breed to that dog. (mangy feet are no issue, that can be cured) There are other bad M'fers I'd be selecting for. Ones that don't destroy everything, I agree it is cunning sometimes the things these dogs do to their environment.

But I would be selecting dogs that are cunning when it counts, when faced with a real problem and ones that think on their feet in a jam. Those are the truly special animals in my book.

[Officially Retired]

I won't compare human intelligence to that of a dog. There have been studies and theories, but bottom line, it is all educated guessing. I mean, why are we breeding them, and caring for them, if they are as intelligent as us, they'd take care of those basics things themselves. That's what they do in the wild, humans have stepped in to harness what they are selecting for.

Again, it's hard to keep a discussion on track with you, because you say things that were never said.

I never said dogs were "as intelligent as humans," so why do you complicate the discussion by adding BS to it?

Dogs *do* have some intelligence, and (just like some people are smarter than others) some dogs are smarter than others ... so I don't know why we can't agree on this simple FACT.

Do you think all dogs have ZERO intelligence? I hope not.
Do you think all dogs have the exact same level of intelligence? I hope not.
Or, do you have the basic sense to realize some dogs ARE smarter than others? I hope so

Jack, I never saw Robert T, heard about the dog, but if he was really that bad M'fer, and had the nasty habits, which I have stated that I personally do not like. I would not breed to that dog. (mangy feet are no issue, that can be cured) There are other bad M'fers I'd be selecting for. Ones that don't destroy everything, I agree it is cunning sometimes the things these dogs do to their environment.

Well, then here is were we disagree in a nutshell: I *would* be breeding to Robert T.
If the Old Man (who's been in the fastest of fast lanes since the 1960s) has never seen a head dog as good as Robert T Jr. (except for his father, the Original Robert T), then we're not talking about "a genetic fluke" we're talking about an ACE who passed on his ACE characteristics into a son ... which is made all the more remarkable because the original Robert T wasn't bred all that much

There is no dog you know of "who doesn't destroy the environment" ... who beat four 4xWs ... and whose daddy beat two Grand Champions and two Champions ... plus 5 other dogs.

The absolute key to having THE BEST performance dogs is breeding to (and harnessing genetically) THE BEST performance characteristics ... not to breed to the dogs on your yard that are "the most convenient" to raise

Now, if a man is lucky and gets all of that in one dog, great.
But if a particular dog is absolutely excellent ... I mean truly superior ... but he has some flaws, or annoying tendencies, then IF you're a performance breeder you have to bite the bullet and breed to that ace ... because the moment you don't, you are NOT breeding for the best dogs, you're breeding for your own personal preferences of conduct.

But I would be selecting dogs that are cunning when it counts, when faced with a real problem and ones that think on their feet in a jam. Those are the truly special animals in my book.

LOL, mine too. But there aren't too many dogs that could "think on their feet" and outsmart some of the baddest dogs who ever lived, more so than Robert T and Robert T Jr. ... who beat 6 Champions and 2 Grand Champions between the father/son team.

I seriously doubt too many father/son dogs you know can make that statement ... and I for one would just about give my left nut to have those 2 dogs on my yard, along with a couple of my foundation bitches, because I know I would have hurt a lot of people's feelings with their pups

Jack

[S_B]

LOL, mine too. But there aren't too many dogs that could "think on their feet" and outsmart some of the baddest dogs who ever lived, more so than Robert T and Robert T Jr. ... who beat 6 Champions and 2 Grand Champions between the father/son team.

I seriously doubt too many father/son dogs you know can make that statement ... and I for one would just about give my left nut to have those 2 dogs on my yard, along with a couple of my foundation bitches, because I know I would have hurt a lot of people's feelings with their pups

Jack

You are correct on that Jack!

I made a few phone calls to some folks who knew that blood pretty well. Mostly they all said Robert T was a good dog, but nothing extraordinary. One said GR CH Angus would have destroyed him if they had met. One said, who saw him while he was a great dog, he was no where near the baddest who ever lived.

And a good head dog really doesn't use their cutters as much as they use their molars.


S_B

[Officially Retired]

You are correct on that Jack!

I never doubted that for a second

I made a few phone calls to some folks who knew that blood pretty well. Mostly they all said Robert T was a good dog, but nothing extraordinary. One said GR CH Angus would have destroyed him if they had met. One said, who saw him while he was a great dog, he was no where near the baddest who ever lived.

Opinions are like assholes, only some stink more than others. The fact is, none of the people you called had dogs that could kiss Robert T's ass accomplishments-wise (or Zukill's for that matter).

Another fact is every dog that BOTH Robert Ts beat were better dogs (and fought for more money) than anyone whom you called ever had also

Indian Bootlegger, for example, was a devastating "killed everything" dog (cover of the Journal / talked about nationwide) that was backed by the Indian and Danny Burton, both of whom have seen/done more than anyone you called also. But Robert T. Jr. stopped that dog cold without a cutter in his head. Spotted him weight too.

Now, Zukill was a badass dog, but no one said anything about the Robert Ts being "badass" dogs ...
But the Robert T's damned sure STOPPED more "badass" dogs ... by riding them out into frustration ... than any dog you have ever petted in your life.

Like your clueless friends, Danny Burton (after he and the Indian lost with Bootlegger) told the old man that Robert T was "a cur-fighting head dog" ... and the Old Man asked, "Do you have anything his weight?", to which there was silence on Burton's end, seeing as he and the Indian just got cleaned out after watching the baddest dog between them quit to Robert T.

I don't know anything about Angus, but I know he wasn't any better than any of the 6 Champions and 2 Grand Champions both Robert Ts beat ... nor did he win as many fights, nor beat as many Champions as T Sr. ... including the 4xW Ch Gomez dog. Ch Gomez had killed all 4 dogs in :40 or less ... and was considered a "2-bite gut dog" ... if he got back there twice, you were dead. Men like Strothers (of Gr Ch Luther fame) and Hargrove (of Gr Ch Rufus/Outlaw fame) told The Old Man there was "no way" Robert T Sr. could beat the Ch Gomez dog. The Old Man asked ... "How much do you want to bet?"

That fight went 3:10 ... and Ch Gomez got back there a time or two ... but Robert T never relinquished his control ... and finally, at 3:10, Gomez took the count with a head the size of a pumpkin, shaking his blood/fluid-filled head in a state of confusion and exhaustion.

I personally wouldn't trade a hair off of Robert T's ass for Angus, and Angus will never have the record of Robert T, nor did he produce a single dog with the record of Ch Robert T Jr.

But you can think what you want. I have always said, and believed, that stupid-aggressive people like stupid-aggressive dogs.
And there was a mile-long waiting list of people with "badass dogs" looking to beat T and T Jr. ... the "ear-fighting curs" ... but they all went home scratching their heads and stitching up their wallets.

And a good head dog really doesn't use their cutters as much as they use their molars.
S_B

Thanks for the lesson on what "a good head dog" does ... I've only been breeding them for 24 years

Also, Zukill wasn't a head dog, but he killed 6 in under an hour ... with no cutters either ... any ideas as to why?

Jack


.

[No Quarter Kennel]

So you're saying the gamest, most intelligent men in Alcatraz prison were the ones who "knew" they couldn't escape ... and sat around accepting their fate ... rather than the few who relentlessly tried and finally figured out how to do so?

I absolutely disagree.

I guess you think the gamest, smartest dog are also the ones who "know they can't win" ... and stop trying too? Again, I absolutely disagree.

The gamest, smartest ones are the ones who never stop trying and always figure some "way" to do what they want to do.

I was talking specifically about your example or analogy. The two men chained around the neck. I was commenting that the one that knows and understands he cannot break free of that situation with what is provided in your example, is the smarter or more intelligent human. Never suggested the "gamest, smartest dogs are also the ones who "know they can't win" so there's nothing for you to disagree with me there. You and I would have been on the same page on that one.

My old man teaches a cognitive intervention class in the state prison system here in Texas. The ones who KNOW and UNDERSTAND the situation and system they are in, are the ones who thrive and succeed. Those who buck that system are the ones, one way or another, are culled in some fashion or another. Either they end up with more time, less privileges, isolation, etc. I offer this b/c you used Alcatraz as an example. The only thing I would ask about the Alcatraz example is, did any of the escapees actually survive? If not, how smart where they? Does committing unintentional suicide equate to more intelligence than the men who never tried to escape? I'm not sure. I don't judge in this way b/c in this situation, I cannot say what I would do without BEING in that situation. Does it show more spirit? Maybe, maybe not. Who's gamer? The man who lives in Alcatraz the remainder of his life, or the guy who escapes and dies? Lots of things to consider and also why I don't think too many comparisons can be made b/t man and animal.

I guess to add to this thread or topic, I hate dogs that are a pain in the ass. Especially when I am feeding more than 10 dogs. I've fed enough good dogs and bad dogs to not have tolerance for them and to also know, I can feed, keep and have a good time with a quality dog that is not a problem. Had I never fed a "good" dog before and the only one I had was a dog that is always wrecking shit, I guess I would keep him. But not any more. If a dog is a barker, water bowl fighter, dog house fighter, extreme digger, etc., Then I will sure enough remove that dog one way or another.

The LG blood is a blood known for certain things. Like a lot of lines are, of course. LG was known for, or at least had/has a reputation for culling pretty hard. It shows in the females in his line. If a bitch did not do a good job of whelping and raising pups, she was a goner. Over the years, this has developed a line that throws extremely maternal females. Bitches that whelp and raise practically every pup thus making life easier on the owner. I'm sure there were some good dogs lost along the way, but I'm also sure there were good dogs passed on as well.

To each their own when it comes to property in the USA.....in my opinion.

[Officially Retired]

My Icon dog not only was smarter than any dog on my yard in the pit, but if he ran some toy off his chain ... and couldn't get it with his front feet ... he'd turn around and try (many times successfully) to get it with his back feet.

I'd say only 1 in 500 dogs will think to "reach" with their back feet too.

Jack