Gameness is either there or not, you can add wind....how about ability?

[R2L]

Yes i give the credit to the roll dog/schooling opponent. Dogs are not as easily controlled as a sparring partner in boxing. You cant say dog 1 attack this weakness and dog 2 work on defending this weakness. Its more hoping it goes according to plan. Its not babbling nonsense that has nothing to do with the dialouge. The point was i dont believe it has as much to do with human enhancement as it does with the dog doing the teaching and the other doing the learning.

I might not fully understand your point due my english but the owner picks his roll opponents right? That´s the human part. Its not about coaching or teaching your dog to attack weaknesses, that's crazy. If you as a owner choose to school your dogs with different type of style animals, you simply give your dog "a chance" to improve its ability.

[tasoschatz]

I think he just says that while you can controle hummans' training 100% as a coach, with animals you can never be 100% sure what will happen during schooling, you can only hope that a certain style will keep appearing from the chosed oponent while the animal in train will react the way you hope to. Basically, since you can never absolutely control animals' actions and reactions, your part as a human lowers in significance while the animals' influence on the training increases. In humans you can ask someone to attack a certain way and the other one to defend in a certain style, with animals you can only hope that a trend will keep appearing.
This is the way I get it.

[R2L]

I think it doesn't really make sense to search for comparisons with humans. I can name a thousand. End of the day, schooling your dog to different style animals is the way to get the best out your dog. You can either try to give it the best possible preparation or hope he won't be needing it.

[EWO]

The comparison to humans (baseball) is a stretch because we have the ability to reason and then (somewhat) follow directions. So I can stand at the plate and hit grounders to be more in control of my practice. I agree that just because I pick a head dog to school another does not 100% mean he will be a head dog on that particular occasion. They are animals.

If that dog has very little wrestling ability but in turn is bred to a family member with the majority of the family members being exceptional wrestlers it becomes the same question if the puppies end up with wrestling ability. Did I enhance the next generation's wrestling ability? or was it genetics?

All I was saying is that anything can be enhanced if it is something there in the beginning and it is properly worked/trained/fed/raised. Even the dumbest of dogs will learn something. EWO

[gotap_d]

@R2L and @tasoschatz you are correct that is all i was saying. Its the humans job to try to pick shooling dogs that you feel will teach your dog what you feel he should be learning. Once the dog is selected its in the hands of the dogs its on one to teach the lesson and hopefully the other learns from the lesson.

[Wardog Kennels]

Yes i give the credit to the roll dog/schooling opponent. Dogs are not as easily controlled as a sparring partner in boxing. You cant say dog 1 attack this weakness and dog 2 work on defending this weakness. Its more hoping it goes according to plan. Its not babbling nonsense that has nothing to do with the dialouge. The point was i dont believe it has as much to do with human enhancement as it does with the dog doing the teaching and the other doing the learning.

The coach gets the credit for the training not the sparring partners or the fighter being trained.

[Officially Retired]

Yes i give the credit to the roll dog/schooling opponent. Dogs are not as easily controlled as a sparring partner in boxing. You cant say dog 1 attack this weakness and dog 2 work on defending this weakness. Its more hoping it goes according to plan. Its not babbling nonsense that has nothing to do with the dialouge. The point was i dont believe it has as much to do with human enhancement as it does with the dog doing the teaching and the other doing the learning.

You have a serious thinking disorder. I understand what you're trying to say, but it's still nonsense to say "the jenny" conditions the dog, rather than the conditioner who places the dog on the jenny.

The dog and the jenny would never get together in the first place, without the placement in that situation by the conditioner, and the same is true with the dog and its roll opponent.

Jack

[gotap_d]

You have a serious thinking disorder. I understand what you're trying to say, but it's still nonsense to say "the jenny" conditions the dog, rather than the conditioner who places the dog on the jenny.

The dog and the jenny would never get together in the first place, without the placement in that situation by the conditioner, and the same is true with the dog and its roll opponent.

Jack

If the dog is placed on the jenny and refuses to budge how effective is the jenny. There's no need to continue the back and forth. You have stated your opinion and i have stated mine. In regards to the jenny/keep and schooling aspects you choose to give the credit to the human. I choose to give more credit to the dog. I give the credit to the human in terms of selecting the rightdog to put in keep in the first place.

[Officially Retired]

If the dog is placed on the jenny and refuses to budge how effective is the jenny.

In that situation, what is ineffective is the dog.

There's no need to continue the back and forth. You have stated your opinion and i have stated mine.

Exactly, so why do you continue to banter the same nonsense?

In regards to the jenny/keep and schooling aspects you choose to give the credit to the human. I choose to give more credit to the dog. I give the credit to the human in terms of selecting the rightdog to put in keep in the first place.

Yes, this has all been identified and re-hashed several times now ... almost to the point of qualifying for a Monty Python skit ... so thank you for yet another walk down this absolutely useless sidetrack.

At what point can we cease this stupid digression into the absurd and continue on with the point of the thread?

Jack

PS: You do remember the point of the thread, don't you? I think it had something to do with whether a dog's abilities/gameness, etc. can be enhanced or not, through training/schooling/experience/a bond with the owner, etc.?

[gotap_d]

In that situation, what is ineffective is the dog.





Exactly, so why do you continue to banter the same nonsense?





Yes, this has all been identified and re-hashed several times now ... almost to the point of qualifying for a Monty Python skit ... so thank you for yet another walk down this absolutely useless sidetrack.

At what point can we cease this stupid digression into the absurd and continue on with the point of the thread?

Jack

PS: You do remember the point of the thread, don't you? I think it had something to do with whether a dog's abilities/gameness, etc. can be enhanced or not, through training/schooling/experience/a bond with the owner, etc.?

When did i ever get off the topic of the thread. My opinion has been the same from the beginning. I gave my thoughts, yours are different which dosent bother me. This hasnt ceased yet because you want to force feed me your opinion on the subject like its a fact.