Gr Ch Tornado

[Officially Retired]

I definitely agree that we shouldn't lose sight of what these bitches and their camps accomplished. That being said Ace himself said he asked Kenny directly to put it together. Ken said he'd think about it and then came back and declined to make the match. That's not an opinion of someone outside the camps and that's not speculation. Why the match was declined we may never know, that is speculation. But the opportunity was definitely presented.

Agreed. How great both of these bitches were should never be discounted.

And, again, even if this were 100% true, that Ace made "the offer," what does this mean exactly? Where are the details? By that I mean, saying "He asked Kenny to put this together" is not a very definitive statement as to the the vital elements of what constitute a match (i.e., at what weight?). If someone "offers to match" a 45 lb dog into a 50 lb dog, at the 45 lb weight limit, is the guy with the 50 lb dog "scared" to go into the 45, or is he just not going to do something stupid when he says, "No."?

So suppose Ace wanted Ken to come down, then of course Ken is going to say no. For that matter, suppose Ace wanted to "meet in the middle," it is still to The Queen's advantage to be 2.5 lb heavy, with Tornado coming in at 2.5 lb light So, again, "No" would be the sensible response from the owner of the bigger dog. Therefore, since we don't know the details, these kinds of "whispered rumors" ultimately mean nothing.

And finally, even if we want to stretch our imagination to the extreme ... and even if it were videotaped that Ace offered to come up ALL the weight, and a full 5 lb in class, to meet Tornado at Tornado's best weight () ... and even if Ken were caught on tape saying, "No, I don't want to do that," it still has NOTHING to do with anything. Ken's fearful opinion would still be his OPINION, and could still be wrong, because IN FACT his 5-lb bigger Double-Grand Champion bitch would in all probability still win

So in no way, shape, or form do these supposed "conversations" have anything to do with a concrete outcome ...

In the end, any knowledgeable dogman would be 100x more willing to bring his killer dog up 2.5 lb into a dog that was 2.5 lb light ... than he would to bringing his killer dog down 2.5 lb, into a great dog with 2.5 lb more size on it, especially after 9 matches under his bitch's belt. Like humans, the older a dog gets, the BIGGER its pit weight gets, not the smaller.

Thus, after the dust cloud of opinion clears, any "offer to match" means nothing as to which was the better dog. In the end, the facts that remain are both dogs were all-time great bitches, and any opinions as to "who would have won" will NEVER become a definitive fact; they will always be mere opinions.

Jack

[CrazyRed]

Agreed. How great both of these bitches were should never be discounted.

And, again, even if this were 100% true, that Ace made "the offer," what does this mean exactly? Where are the details? By that I mean, saying "He asked Kenny to put this together" is not a very definitive statement as to the the vital elements of what constitute a match (i.e., at what weight?). If someone "offers to match" a 45 lb dog into a 50 lb dog, at the 45 lb weight limit, is the guy with the 50 lb dog "scared" to go into the 45, or is he just not going to do something stupid when he says, "No."?

So suppose Ace wanted Ken to come down, then of course Ken is going to say no. For that matter, suppose Ace wanted to "meet in the middle," it is still to The Queen's advantage to be 2.5 lb heavy, with Tornado coming in at 2.5 lb light So, again, "No" would be the sensible response from the owner of the bigger dog. Therefore, since we don't know the details, these kinds of "whispered rumors" ultimately mean nothing.

And finally, even if we want to stretch our imagination to the extreme ... and even if it were videotaped that Ace offered to come up ALL the weight, and a full 5 lb in class, to meet Tornado at Tornado's best weight () ... and even if Ken were caught on tape saying, "No, I don't want to do that," it still has NOTHING to do with anything. Ken's fearful opinion would still be his OPINION, and could still be wrong, because IN FACT his 5-lb bigger Double-Grand Champion bitch would in all probability still win

So in no way, shape, or form do these supposed "conversations" have anything to do with a concrete outcome ...

In the end, any knowledgeable dogman would be 100x more willing to bring his killer dog up 2.5 lb into a dog that was 2.5 lb light ... than he would to bringing his killer dog down 2.5 lb, into a great dog with 2.5 lb more size on it, especially after 9 matches under his bitch's belt. Like humans, the older a dog gets, the BIGGER its pit weight gets, not the smaller.

Thus, after the dust cloud of opinion clears, any "offer to match" means nothing as to which was the better dog. In the end, the facts that remain are both dogs were all-time great bitches, and any opinions as to "who would have won" will NEVER become a definitive fact; they will always be mere opinions.

Jack

Well I havent spoken to Edward or his brother in quite some years, he went by Rifelman. I actually remember when this all came about, it was when "Ace" called out a few Ch's but nobody would accept. I dont think Kenny thought much of it, said he would think about it and it just never came about. He had a 10xw it was nothing to think about besides seeing what he could get off that bitch. After her last ordeal of going 3 hours, I think the answer was clear, she had done so much more then any dog should be asked it wasnt a point. Ricky who was a good guy before he ratted, thought the world of Queen, said he thought she was unbeatable after she dismantled Ch Lou. A bitch that many "thought" was one of the best in the world.

Far as the details, it wasnt about weight or money (them boys and camps had enough money to hold several different 200 dog yards with ease) it was just about respect that his dog was well over a GrCh. Without doubt all of us in the region respected Queen and several other dogs that the Brothers showed back then. Shit I remember that puppy he showed into a Ch, the pup was 12 or 13 months old at the time and beat a damn good Ch. We all thought he was crazy as hell for even thinking about testing a puppy let alone showing him into a Ch. But pup had got into a yard accident and did some damage and he said he would never show a puppy again win or lose but wanted to prove a point. Well that pup did more then prove a point. Edward or "Ace" had a damn good eye for a bulldog he just knew one and he knew how to shape a good dog. The weight was going to be Tornado's weight 42-43and while it was an offer it wasn't a demand. The news of the offer swept through the region and folks were lining up to buy tickets as if it was going to be Ohio State v Michigan game. Probably would of filled some of that stadium if allowed.

We will never know and we can only speculate, I can admit this, if you ever seen Edward bring a dog, or seen Queen go then you know he knows a bulldog and weight isnt the end all be all in a super fight. Zebo pushed 4lbs into another bad ass Ch and won. Queen wasn't just a killer she was something special, if possible there are a few with some video of her see if yall can get around to seeing it. Good big man typically beats Good little man. That's a show that didnt happen because it just wasn't supposed to. Rather I wish that Ricky would have brought out Shady Lady for Queen and that if Ladystone owner didnt pass early he could of been up to bringing her into Tornado, if I'm not mistaken she stopped 2 Ch's from their supposed dance to meet Tornado.

In the end it's something that doesnt need to be discussed it just didnt happen, just as Action Jackson didnt meet Sunny Boy, Just as Jeep didnt meet Angus, Homer didnt meet Chinaman and Junkyard didnt meet Tombstone, Milou didnt meet Zebo and Zebo didnt meet Jeremiah. We can wish and speculate but that's all it is. Those dogs deserve the upmost respect either way.

[Officially Retired]

We will never know and we can only speculate, I can admit this, if you ever seen Edward bring a dog, or seen Queen go then you know he knows a bulldog and weight isnt the end all be all in a super fight. Zebo pushed 4lbs into another bad ass Ch and won. Queen wasn't just a killer she was something special, if possible there are a few with some video of her see if yall can get around to seeing it. Good big man typically beats Good little man. That's a show that didnt happen because it just wasn't supposed to.

Great post overall.

Wanted to make a couple of comments here:

1) Zebo pushing weight into Greaser wasn't the same, as Zebo was a killer while Greaser was just slick. No one would push 4-lb of weight into a mutual killer ... which Tornado was, seeing as she killed 9 dogs dogs out of 10 ... 3 of which without Tornado getting touched in return ... and the only bitch that lived to her jumped the wall (Tant's Black Cat). Many all-time great dogmen consider Tornado the baddest bitch who ever lived, including Ricky Jones, Fat Bill, the Old Man I know who's matched into more dogs than most can possibly imagine, including the likes of Dbl Gr Ch Melonhead, Hargroves Gr Outlaw, Gr Ch Sampson, etc.

2, these were beyond "good" big men versus "good" little men ... these were 1 smaller, great 8xW bitch going into the greatest, most accomplished bitch in the history of the sport in Tornado ... who was 5 lb bigger than The Queen.

So, I agree, it wasn't supposed to happen.

Jack