Good Handler or Questionable gameness ?

[Officially Retired]

Sure, you have to handle free of holds after a turn, I'm just saying that it is very easy to be a few feet further away from your dog and a little slower when the opponent is up to scratch.

Sure, it's very easy to do this, but it is still poor sportsmanship, not earnest effort.

Anyone who doesn't play the game like that is a damn fool.

Strictly speaking, anyone who does play the game "like that" is defying the rules, and as such can (and should) be fouled for it.

I can guarantee you when you are up against most top notch dogmen that is what is going on with the other side.

Justifying not following the rules with "Other guys do it too" arguments is invalid.

The simple truth is, a participant is either earnestly following the rules, or he's not, and those participants who deliberately transgress the rules are called "cheaters."

For this reason, if a participant is deliberately not following the directive of "pick up free of holds," when there's a clear opportunity, then that person can (and should) get warned, then fouled-out. Period.

Good dogmen do everything within the rules to give themselves an advantage.

Actually, deliberately being too far away to handle, or not trying to handle when you can, is not "within the rules" ... it is acting in defiance of them

Jack

[TFX]

Well, if someone is into doing the opponent a favor and helping them win, I suppose they will handle to their utmost ability each time out of holds, thereby placing the burden back on their own dog again every other handle.

You wouldn't be able to see if I was sandbagging it a bit as a handler when the other entry is up, but you could be damned sure I was going to show the other guy up when it was our turn to scratch, even if it meant pulling my dog from the bottom and forcing the other guy to handle his.

Jack, there's no rule that says you must be anywhere other than in the pit when the show is going on. Now, I'm not suggesting that being 16 feet away in an opposite corner is a good place to be, but you don't need to be in the ready position the whole show after the first turn either. If you're up against a 300+ pound man who is over 60 years old, do you think he is going to be as fast on the handle as the 21 year old kid who is in shape? I'm not going to help a guy out any, that is "poor sportsmanship" to my own dog! My pick ups are going to match his pace when he is up to scratch, and there isn't a good ref in the country who would call a foul on that.

[YVK]

This is a team sport and the best team wins. if my opponent makes a handle i will grab my charge BUT i will not initiate a handle that will not be advantageous to my team and as TFX says no good ref will call a foul on that.im not saying blatantly ignore the rules but maybe i wasnt fast enough, maybe i thought he was in hold, and i was just being cautious because what will get you fouled out sooner is repeatedly attempting to handle your dog and they are not free of holds.

[CRISIS]

"my knee was sore that day, what can you do??" LOL

[OGDOGG]

Make a handle to help your dog..or make a handle to end the contest..it's usually one of these choice.
The guy with the advantage don't have to initiate the handle if he doesn't want to. If the down dog is getting killed, his handler better initiate the handle, cause the other guy ain't gonna help him out. Thats just common sense.
You're right YVK, a ref will give you a warning for trying to make a handle when they're still in hold than not trying to handle.
In 19 years, I've never heard of anyone even get a warning for not trying to make a handle.

[Albino Rhino]

I agree, I'm not handling while I'm on top at every chance I could. Most guys are scared to handle from the bottom and I'm damn sure not doing their job for them. If the opponent is/does make a handle then ill be ready to make mine. I can't tell you how many times I've snatched mine up from the bottom and been told "nice handle". It ain't no nice handle, it's a PROPER handle that anyone in competition should be or able to do! If I handle mine and yours is chasing me because you can't/won't handle yours, a boot will solve that problem and don't go crying "foul" because the FIRST foul was you not handling yours, I don't play the "oops my bad I couldn't get a handle" game.

[EWO]

It's a fine line. The true sportsman sees it in black and white with absolutely no gray area. The guy skirting the edges and slightly stepping out of bounds in order to win more than likely has some gray area between the black and white. I will do what I can to make my handles when they are suppose to be made. The only time I skirt the issue, and to some it may be a case of stepping over the line is if I am on top, really laying the wood and the scratch is on you. I am not going to make a handle that helps you more than it does me. My first responsibility is the welfare and well being of my dog. I am not going to take an advantage away from him that he worked so hard to gain. In this case I will skirt the 'rule' and pretty much let you know to pick up. EWO

[FarmersChoice]

good point ewo i would not give you the advantage in any hunt im there to win not nothing else not saying i willl do what ever but i will do what evers best with in the hunting rules

[EWO]

It's a fine line. A similar topic is the scratch to continue. Once long ago I was asked for one and I refused. It did not go over well with the home crowd. I replied they could pick up and get a courtesy if they were not sure if the dog was game. But I would not punish my dog for doing well no more than I would reward theirs for coming up short. Like I said, some gray area here, cause if I were on the bottom end in the same situation I would ask for a time out, a drink of water and a soothing sponge bath if I thought it would help my dog. Anytime your dog is willing to die for your money the very least you can do is to absolutely have his best interest at heart. EWO

[Albino Rhino]

It's a fine line. A similar topic is the scratch to continue. Once long ago I was asked for one and I refused. It did not go over well with the home crowd. I replied they could pick up and get a courtesy if they were not sure if the dog was game. But I would not punish my dog for doing well no more than I would reward theirs for coming up short. Like I said, some gray area here, cause if I were on the bottom end in the same situation I would ask for a time out, a drink of water and a soothing sponge bath if I thought it would help my dog. Anytime your dog is willing to die for your money the very least you can do is to absolutely have his best interest at heart. EWO

I have NEVER seen anyone give a scratch to continue, I've seen it asked numerous times but never allowed, from a competition standpoint it makes no sense. It could literally change the bout 180 degrees, who would do that to their charge? Also, I have never seen a crowd get upset about not allowing it, they know the deal, it's NOT a rule or even in the grey area. Like you said, pick up and ill let you tail scratch but I ain't letting you blast me in the corner either. Why take a chance of getting a bleeder or knocking out a cutter after the winner has been decided?