This is a very interesting subject I do agree on alot that is said here, I myself have bought pups off Jack himself because I like what he was doing, people can say what they want about him that's between them, I agree with him and YigYang if you want a Tom Garner dog buy from Tom, you want a Vise-Grip dog buy from Jack if it's just a name your looking for then buy whatever name you want, but if your looking at traits things in the individual dog or dogs parents, then buy from said dogs that you want what they got. I have people all the time asking for Vise-Grip dogs I have pup from Jack he created them individual pups but the breedings I make with them dogs are by my choice by my vision for the traits I'm looking for and trying to acheive, nobody's to blame for my breedings but me. I've done that breeding with my to Vise-Grip dogs and had remarkable results better than what I hoped for. If Jack or anybody else would have did the same breeding I don't no, I did and I love it. Now Jack has done a fine job I love both my dogs I got from him and they are top notch dogs, but they have diffrent things that I love more than the other, so I have my own vision of my dogs, my yard. I guess in short create your own vision,and alway becareful who you buy from.