conditioning on raw ( water in take)

[FrostyPaws]

Scratching, that's where whatever other carbs you want to feed in a keep come into play in regards to liver. Carbs such as rice, (insert carb here).

In regards to the fat Jack, they're going to be burning the fat anyway as that is the primary energy source. I don't know if they burn MORE fat then or not, but they're going to be burning it anyway. Also, what kibble feeders need to realize that if they're going to switch to raw for a keep, they need to do it at least 6 weeks before hand. They can start adjusting the dog's body to extra fat by giving kibble with more fat, adding oils, whatever, but if they're going to feed raw in a keep, it is imperative they switch weeks before they even put a weight out so the body can adjust to the food source, the fat content, the whole shebang.

What I've found in letting dogs drink freely is that they will drink a lot immediately after work. That will satiate their thirst AND help rehydrate the dog. The problem I have with all of that is two fold. One is as you mentioned. I can't sit and watch the dog and his water all day nor am I able to give him X amount of water at set intervals. Another problem I've found is that dog's drinking water in a 4 hour window range of work always work shitty. Every dog I've ever owned that did that, to the T, worked like shit that day. The dilemma is what if the dog NEEDS the water at that time to help rehydrate? That is why I like all the water in the feed, whether at once or split. It eliminates ME stressing, and it eliminates the dog making silly, dog-like decisions.

Taso, a dog's primary energy source is fat, but carbs still play a part in the energy expenditure. By giving something such as maltodextrin in a 30minute window, the reuptake of glycogen is I believe 60-65%, maybe more. Then, whatever other carbs you feed will bump you up to 100% by the next time to work. So you're effectively replenishing your glycogen stores (which fuels the muscle for certain activity levels) everyday. It doesn't take much, and you an effectively get by with doing all of that with a less than 10% carb diet. So, it plays a very minimal part of the feed.

What I'm going to do next time is split the water. 50% at night with some pedialyte mixed in, and I'll give 50% the next morning or whatever schedule I'm on at the time. I may be a lot of things, but I sure do love doing different things to see if something works better than another.

[tasoschatz]

Scratch, I do get what you say, the theory is that first you replenish muscle glycogen, then liver and then you start converting in fat. So basically you do not burn fat but you avoid an early storage stop, before fully recover glycogen levels and subsequently start to store fat.
My knowledge about human systems and how they work is, I feel, quite adequate. What I try to find through questions is what everyone has to contribute through actual experience, canine sience, or human science applied to dogs as guess work. In many pit forums I see all the time explanations about everything but I prefer to be able to put it under a category such as experience, dog applied facts or science from other mamals.
For example, FrostyPaws says that glycogen reuptake is something like 60-65%, I do not argue with that but I like to be able to see where it comes from. It helps me to better evaluate a piece of advice.
I remember talking to gd with gringo, he told me that he followed mayfields' advice about giving honey to a dog prior to working out for higher training output, I tried it and it works. Today he works with bee pollen and other supplements. In case anybody feels this info is of some use.
I also find often usefull info in sources about racing dogs, the bets and the money at stake there is much higher, so there is more research involved.

[FrostyPaws]

Taso, I believe I've posted a few articles on this site from Arleigh Reynolds, and he's the man that came up with that by doing his own tests on sled dogs in Alaska. If it's not up on this site, I will find the article and post it for you.

It should be noted also that Gringo has moved on from a lot of what Mayfield told him, and he has been very successful with the dogs he has down in South America at this point.

[tasoschatz]

I haven't nortice these articles here but I do remember some time in the past reading from sources about sled dogs, for my criterion this is valuable info, extreme conditions on something that happens since ever. Thanks for the source info.
I will try and find gringo's supplementation and posted here, maybe it was in a forum I asked him, but could also be between pm's among us.

[R2L]

Interesting turn about the glycogen levels, if i understand you guys right you want to bring those up to level to prevent the body from burning protein (muscles) after training?
Im putting a small portion of rice through the rice so i quess that's ok, but i wonder how low the fat percentage has to be for the body to start burning up muscles. I guess you always want to keep a little fat in your dog to burn, same in the show. The dog cannot perform without fuel, so how is he going to be so low on fat percentage that it starts to burn protein after a training?


Another question about the water intake popped up to me. What if i was going to experiment giving the dog 0,6oz for each lb of water and i keep checking his skin count every day. At one point i find my dog is not hydrated enough, i quickly change from 0,6 to 1,0. What real harm has been done to that dog being not hydrated enough for less then a day? Not trying to take you guys advices for granted but i can walk a 42 lbs dog which is being fed 400 gr of raw a day 3x 20 minutes a day, and it still wont drink any water. Is it really going to use up 1,2 liter extra if id added 45 minutes of millwork? Depends on the temperatures you're training in too.

[tasoschatz]

I do not know for sure about dogs, but in humans fat burning occurs at certain heart beat levels. If the exetcise is of high output in short time, so high heart beat, preffered energy source are glycogens aka carbs followed by muscle, no fat burning at all. Later on fat could be used as energy source to replenish "fuel storage" but since this thread is about performance during working and not about dieting, it is a different subject itself.
In extreme low body fat situations, the body instead of metabolising fat and carbs throughout the day for energy, will burn muscle into glucose into energy etc to function.

[Officially Retired]

Scratching, that's where whatever other carbs you want to feed in a keep come into play in regards to liver. Carbs such as rice, (insert carb here).

Not to mention the fact there are trace carbs everywhere, even in food items you don't think they're in ...

In regards to the fat Jack, they're going to be burning the fat anyway as that is the primary energy source. I don't know if they burn MORE fat then or not, but they're going to be burning it anyway. Also, what kibble feeders need to realize that if they're going to switch to raw for a keep, they need to do it at least 6 weeks before hand. They can start adjusting the dog's body to extra fat by giving kibble with more fat, adding oils, whatever, but if they're going to feed raw in a keep, it is imperative they switch weeks before they even put a weight out so the body can adjust to the food source, the fat content, the whole shebang.

Again, I remember reading somewhere that most of any fat burning that goes on is precisely when the glycogen stores are finally depleted. While the glycogen stores are available, there is no (or virtually no) fat burning taking place, precisely because the glycogen stores are available. This is why, at the end of the work, when the glycogen stores are actually depleted through the exercize, that the most fat-burning is now taking place: the body is converting the available fat stores in the body into more glycogen for energy. In immediately giving carbs for the reuptake of glycogen, the body ceases to need to convert fat into glycogen stores, but instead uses the available carbs for this purpose.

If my recollection of what I read is true, then it would make sense not to give carbs to dogs that are still over the weight, during this 1-hour window, but to allow the dog to burn its own fat and thus convert its own excess into the needed glycogen stores for the next day. By contrast, a dog that is already down to pit weight (or very close) should have its glycogen stores replaced by carbs during this window; otherwise the body will attempt to convert lean muscle mass into the needed glycogen stores (although, with dogs, I have also read that their liver actually produces glycogen for the body when the animal is completely empty).

I also think the primary difference between how dogs use nutrition and how we do lies in the fact we humans are able to convert carbs into energy very easily, whereas (after long periods of work) dogs tend to convert fat sources into energy more so than carbs, even if they have available glycogen stores in the body.

What I've found in letting dogs drink freely is that they will drink a lot immediately after work. That will satiate their thirst AND help rehydrate the dog. The problem I have with all of that is two fold. One is as you mentioned. I can't sit and watch the dog and his water all day nor am I able to give him X amount of water at set intervals. Another problem I've found is that dog's drinking water in a 4 hour window range of work always work shitty. Every dog I've ever owned that did that, to the T, worked like shit that day. The dilemma is what if the dog NEEDS the water at that time to help rehydrate? That is why I like all the water in the feed, whether at once or split. It eliminates ME stressing, and it eliminates the dog making silly, dog-like decisions.

Exactly. Giving all the water "after the work" essentially allows you more control over what you're doing, but again I am not sure if it is "best practice" to give it along with the feed as well simultaneously. I do know that dogs' stomachs are capable of processing a lot of food at one setting, and that their digestive juices are exceptionally-strong and able to do so ... but (again) I am not sure that this necessarily holds true when the stomach is diluted with an entire day's supply of water that's been added to it as well.

Taso, a dog's primary energy source is fat, but carbs still play a part in the energy expenditure. By giving something such as maltodextrin in a 30minute window, the reuptake of glycogen is I believe 60-65%, maybe more. Then, whatever other carbs you feed will bump you up to 100% by the next time to work. So you're effectively replenishing your glycogen stores (which fuels the muscle for certain activity levels) everyday. It doesn't take much, and you an effectively get by with doing all of that with a less than 10% carb diet. So, it plays a very minimal part of the feed.

I remember reading another interesting phenomenon unique to dogs as well, namely that (when completely empty ... I mean completely) that a dog's liver produces its own glycogen to keep the dog going. Again, I really need to spend a day looking around for my sources, but I do remember reading something to this effect: that part of the reason wolves are able to just "go all day" and run endlessly with no food or nutrition in them at all, as they hunt, is because they can produce their own glycogen via the liver. (Please forgive me, though, if my recollection is wrong, but I don't think it is.)

What I'm going to do next time is split the water. 50% at night with some pedialyte mixed in, and I'll give 50% the next morning or whatever schedule I'm on at the time. I may be a lot of things, but I sure do love doing different things to see if something works better than another.

That is cool, and let us know how you do. But consider trying it with straight Pedialyte first, as any results obtained will be more noticeable (one way or the other) I would think

Jack

[FrostyPaws]

R2L, you're talking about walking a dog? That's not work. That's just walk.

Put your dog on a mill or whatever else you have, and make him run as hard as he can for 60 minutes. Your dog will drink water. I don't condition dogs for a show by walking them so I don't know how that works.

High intensity mill work or jenny, and your dog is going to drink water I don't care how much raw feed it gets.

[FrostyPaws]

Taso, my numbers of 60-65% were a little high. Here is an excerpt of the piece written by Arleigh Reynolds:

"Recent research has shown that the most effective way to replenish carbohydrates in a canine athlete is through provision of modified starches called maltodextrins. Maltodextrins are 8-20 glucose units long, therefore, they fall between simple sugar and complex starches in structure. Maltodextrins are rapidly absorbed and taken up by the muscle without the insulin spikes or other associated GI problems attributed to other carbohydrate sources.


Several studies have examined the benefits of post-exercise maltodextrin supplementation in dogs that perform prolonged exercise. Dogs that were given 1.5-2.0 g carbohydrate/ kg body weight post-exercise in the form of maltodextrins were able to recover, on average, about 50% of pre-exercise glycogen stores within 4 hours of exercise and about 85 % of pre-exercise glycogen within 24 hours, while dogs fed but not supplemented recovered less than 40% of their pre-exercise glycogen after 24-hours."

So by feeding ONLY maltodextrin, you get about 85% pre-exercise glycogen in a 24 hour period. Once the other carbs from the food is processed, you will get 100% glycogen replenishment every day.

[tasoschatz]

Frosty thanks for the excerpt.
I do accept it as it is written, but I have to mention that in humans the 85% + 15% glycogen replenishment has not to do with the carb source but time, to simply put it, as a human, no matter what you eat, you need more than 24 hours to compeletely refuel.
Again in humans, after a strength work out, because hormonal levels are at a high, you are in advantage in burning fat, but you do lose the opportunity for fast carb replenishment. You get something and loose also in another aspect. It has been shown in studies that the exercise for really high hormonal output, testo etc not cortisol, is the 100 meters run, maximum effort in a short time. So, in theory, if we where able to do this like ten+ times per day, every few hours, we would be like in the juice.