Anybody had experience with this problem in a pup ?
If so,did you give the pup a chance ?
Just thought that i would bring it up as there is many who would not recognise the problem & cull. Bit of an eyes up to those who may come across it in the future to give the pup a chance.
Only come across it once,so my opinion is not so much concrete.
Swimmers are not genetically-defective; the condition comes about because of ownership ignorance/laziness, not anything wrong with the pup. This means anyone who "culls" a pup over this is a retard twice over as a dogman, first by creating the situation through poor whelping protocol, and then by not understanding WHY the situation happened in the first place. Plainly and simply, the condition of "swimming" happens generally in smaller litters, and generally in whelping pens with no bedding, which creates a combination of factors:
- The pup get too fat by having too much to eat;
- There is no traction for the pup to stand up on as he develops and tries to learn to stand, so he "slips" every time he tries to stand up, and then quickly develops the bad habit of "swimming."
Therefore, swimming is an ownership/kennel mismanagement issue, and is not any indication of a defect in the pup. The remedy to correct the condition is easy as pie, simply by reversing the conditions that created the problem in the first place: 1) get the bitch out of the whelping pen for most of the day, so the pup/s will lose weight (as swimmers are generally hog-fat), and 2) get some bedding in that whelping pen, so the pup has some traction to push off of and "get a leg under him." Swimmers generally slip-and-slide on the greasy wood or kennel crate, because the owner didn't have any bedding in there.
If people follow my weaning method, they will never have swimmers. It is only people who leave the mama in there with the pups too long with no break, and have whelping pens with little or no bedding, and are not paying attention to how fat the pups are getting, who suddenly go, "Damn! This pup can't walk!" the next time they bother to take a look at the litter. The few times I have gotten swimmers have always been because I wasn't paying attention and was getting lazy in my care.
Jack
Have to disagree on one part Jack,as i don't believe i am as bad as you say,"all" breeders are.
I also don't agree on reversing the surroundings to correct it. Far from as easy as that,but maybe we both witnessed different conditions.
My problem was noticed before 3 week & 3 week(ish) is my start to letting mum spend more time away,with gates locked. I always use bedding too.
As you said,a small litter don't help. Over heated pen & footing also.
I never said all breeders are bad. What I said was that swimming was caused by kennel mismanagement and a combination of the two factors previously mentioned, and I stand by that statement, even though I have been guilty of it myself.Originally Posted by gabbagabbahey
You can disagree if you want, but you asked for my opinion and that was it.
If it wasn't easy to reverse, then you let it go on until the malady really sunk in.
It's like rickets: it's easy to cure if you're on top of things, but it can be irreversible if you're not.
Again, you have the right to disagree with me, but you asked for my opinion and (based on 20 years of experience raising more litters than 99.99% of any person alive), that is it.
Sounds like I was right yet again, as your pup was fat too.
What do you consider bedding/footing?
Sometimes bedding can be in, sparcely, but if there's not enough of it, the bedding gets pushed to the side, and so the fat pup "swims" in the center on the greasy wood/crate. So, technically there can be "bedding" in there, but not enough to keep the pup from slipping.
Jack
True,you never said all breeders were bad. You just put across that i was pretty much a fool for having a swimmer puppy. Albeit yourself too.
If i left the pup too long then i am pretty sure that this will have been due to the age of the pup & not knowing the problem at that time. I have never been one for interfering for the 1st 3 week,other than a daily quick look,but i do recollect noticing the problem before 3 week.
Did i now what the problem was ? Not until i took it to the vet.
Did i leave it too late to start correcting the issue at around 3 week ?
I would have thought that all pups with the problem will be overweight ?
My post was not to say i am right & you are wrong,or to get into a debate.
Your post was informative,but rather than lay the blame at the breeder,you could have been more constructive in the case
of it happening to others.
This was around 10yr ago so it would be wrong for me to say what bedding i used. Today they have what we call over here a "vet blanket" with shredded waxed paper.
There was a very valid reason for me leaving this female alone & not interfering. It is not an excuse on my behalf,but she did kill most of the litter,leaving 2. I witnessed one event.
We all have different opinions based on our experiences. Although i have never bred as many litters as yourself,i have been around the dogs for a long time.
Of course it would be much easier for me to recognise a similar problem a wee bit earlier & i am more alert to pups weight,footing & temperature in the pen.
If anything,then hopefully it gives others a wee bit knowledge on how to prevent this happening.
Appreciate your input Jack.
You just defined your own negligence sir.
Did I not say that negligent puppy whelping causes swimmers? You just told me that you didn't bother with the pups for the first 3 weeks of their lives "other than a quick look." That is negligence. The first 3 weeks of a pup's life are the most critical, and yet you're nowhere to be found during this critical period.
I advised you that people create the conditions for the problem to exist with their set up ... and I further advised that if it gets really bad, then it's because the breeder isn't paying attention ... and here you are basically admitting that you don't pay attention. And, yes, that has been me on a couple of occasions. We all can be guilty of negligence, can we not? However, you have told me "not paying attention for the first 3 weeks" is your usual practice, but it sure as heck isn't mine.
Now, regarding being a fool, I only applied this statement to someone who would kill a pup whose defect was correctable and was ultimately their own fault. If you did this, then yes you were a fool to do so. I am sorry, but that is my opinion. Therefore, if you killed the pup, then you are guilty of this. If not, then it doesn't apply to you.
However, I absolutely believe that if your habit is "not to look at the pups for the first 3 weeks," then YES you are a negligent breeder. On Day 1, for example, pups may need help because the bitch has bad milk. Other pups may not be able to nurse effectively for the first few days. If you're not there to notice the pups are crying, acting bad, or pushed off to the side, then I very much believe you are negligent.
Instead of getting reactive and defensive, how about a look into the mirror and saying, "Maybe the guy has a point." I mean, seriously, how can you possibly call yourself a "conscientious" breeder in the same sentence you say "you don't even bother to monitor the pups until they're 3 weeks." It's absurd. I am not being mean, I am telling you the truth you asked me for.
My own practice is the exact opposite of yours: my pups sleep in a crate, in my room, and I check them constantly until they're 3 weeks of age, and are able to see and move around on their own. At that point is when I move them out into a starter pen with their mother. I am HANDS ON when the pups are at their most delicate, while you are "hands off" ...
Yes you are debating me, and you are simply wrong. Why should I not lay blame with the breeder, when it is breeder negligence that causes the problem? Would you like me to make up a different reason, or do you want me to tell it to you like it is?
You asked me what caused the condition, and what to do to correct it, and I told you. What else would you have me do?
Although I laid the blame on the breeder, I was being constructive. Identifying negligence for what it is, so it can be corrected in the future, IS constructive. What you need to do is not be so defensive. Your protocol was the cause of the problem. Denial or self-justification isn't helping you understand or correct the problem.
Wax paper doesn't seem to be a good idea to me, as wax is slippery.
Well, I can't speak with authority on your reasoning, but I do know that fat pups and slippery conditions create swimmers, and I also know if it gets real bad then somebody wasn't paying attention, and you have done nothing here but confirm what I have said.
Being "around dogs a long time" doesn't mean much. I know a man who's been in the fastest of fast lanes longer than you or I have been alive, but I constantly had to help him with his breedings and in saving his pups, because of his slip-shod breeding practices. As you know, my greatest experience in dogs is as a breeder, you asked me for my opinion on what causes this breeding problem, and I answered your questions exactly. I am not trying to be mean, but I don't sugar-coat anything either.
I hope, after the sting of truth goes away, that the information I provided does help you.
As Benjamin Franklin said, "Those things that hurt, instruct."
However, good advice can only help if the one asking for it pays attention and listens to it.
Good luck,
Jack
Like yourself Jack,i like to get to the point rather than beat around the bush. I would not be here if i never felt that i could learn something. Whatever you have said is heeded & if logical to me then i hope to take it in. Be that criticism or whatever else. Maybe the one liner i wrote was what you were waiting on. It don't portray the whole picture on myself regarding being negligent,which is your opinion. You then criticise me regarding the 1st few days of a pups life when you are only going off my one liner. I won't say that one liner was a true reflection on me checking on pups daily & i sure won't agree to your opinion of myself based on what i have wrote. That is matterless anyway as i only have myself to please. What i will say is that no one could ever criticise me on seeing any pups which were born here so most things must be good.
Maybe my lack of education don't help in my writing,but hey,i make no excuses.
I may well have let myself down but i do know that once the issue was noted then i responded.
The pup was brought into the house with constant care,massage,etc etc. I learn't a lot in such a short space of time. Made a sock to cover the body with stuffing inside to stop him from lying on his stomach,rubber matting to help him hold his own. I had no one to turn to for advice as no one had seen the problem,but he got there & showed no problems when mature. If not for taking the pup to the vet & getting told the problem then i may well have been that "fool". Sods law,he was confiscated as a young adult. His only other littermate had no problems whatsoever.
I like a dam to be in her own privacy with no distractions. I find it helps,but i would not criticise anyone including yourself
for doing otherwise.
The waxed paper is shredded & i use a thin layer on top of the vet blanket. The vet blanket is ideal for pups in my opinion.
As i said earlier i cannot honestly remember the bedding at the time of the pups problem & it would be wrong of me to say otherwise.
I know only too well that time in the dogs means nothing. It is what you do & learn inbetween that counts. Coming up to 30yr & i don't proclaim to be anything other than what i am & i sure ain't done learning.
I don't breed a lot & there has been no more than 25 pups born here this last 17yr so of course i know i am not always right,but i also know that i do not neglect my dogs be they young or old. Hence my defensive attitude,i took offense of your 1st reply.
I will leave it at that Jack,as i really should not get offended by what you have wrote. One pup in a mans lifetime,which sure
learn't me a lot. Hopefully this thread educates others & they don't end up being a "fool".
Good luck..............
I never understand when someone asks for advice or help, then argue when it is given. it is better for someone just to "think" someone is foolish, than for that person to speak and remove all doubt.
Word.
Don't believe i asked for advice or help EK. I asked for opinions & Jack kindly gave me his. If as Jack said,that every dog owner should be educated on that problem,then you,being a breeder could have gave me your thoughts on the subject.
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