Western Rules

Here is a set of rules that I authored 7 or 8 years ago since nobody could ever agree as to what Cajun Rules actually were. I have seen everyone decide "Cajun Rules to govern", and then see enormous contention as a result. These are refined on a version of Cajun Rules, with many of the loopholes closed. I have not seen anything better. Unfortunately, these rules never gained the popularity for widespead use, although all who read them thought they were better than anything we had at the time. Friends of mine in the east and south who bemoaned the fact that no sponges and bucket were mentioned got a little concession out of me on that one, so it was included in a revision.

Western Rules

1. A place is to be agreed upon to hold the contest at the time a match is made. Size of the pit is optional, sides must be at least 2 feet high, and scratch lines 12 feet apart.

2. A referee who has knowledge of the rules, and is agreeable to both parties to be selected before the match proceedings begin. The referee may also act as the timekeeper, or may delegate this responsibility to someone else. Each handler will select a second to assist him.

3. All money, and a forfeit amount is to be presented to the referee prior to the dogs being weighed at a date and hour previously agreed upon. A certified test pea should be provided so that a scale can be properly adjusted. The referee will then select, and prepare a scale on which the dogs may be weighed. The referee will have the final decision on matters pertaining to weighing the dogs. If either dog is over the contracted weight, forfeit money is to be paid to the party whose dog is on, or under contracted weight immediately. If both dogs are over the contracted weight, no forfeit shall be paid to either party. A new agreement can be made, and the show continued under either of these circumstances.

4. After dogs are weighed, a coin toss will determine who shall wash first and have selection of corners. Each party should furnish two clean towels and a newly wrapped sponge to wash with. The referee will oversee washing activities, and may search the people named to wash the dogs. Requests may be made through the referee to have either side roll sleeves to show bare arms while washing and or handling the dogs at any point throughout the contest. Each side will wash the opponents dog while being observed by the dogs owner or designated representative, and the referee. The person from either side who is called upon to wash a dog may wipe the dog’s body before using soap, and then use the sponge to wipe inside of the dogs mouth unless both sides are against this. If any dog is found to have a poison or rub on any part of him, the opponent will be declared the winner on a foul. Dogs are then to be washed in soap and water. After the first dog is washed, he will be carried to the pit by a representative of the opposing party, and then presented to the handler at the pit. He must wait in the pit for the other handler to arrive with the referee. During this time, he will only be accompanied by a representative from the opponent’s side, as the referee is still with the dog being washed.

5. The referee has the responsibility to ensure that no dog is given an unfair advantage throughout the weighing and washing activities. If any foul play is observed, either side may appeal to the referee to call the match at once, and the party who is victim to the foul play awarded the full purse of the contest.

6. Coin toss winner will also have selection of corners. His corner is to be declared when he enters the pit with his dog. Both parties will then immediately go to their corners. At that point both dogs will be shown with full head and shoulders between the handlers legs. The referee will then call out after 5 seconds “Release your dogs”. The handlers must never push or shove their dog forward, and all 4 feet must be on the floor when at the scratch line. The handler may not leave their corners until the dogs are together and at least one dog in holds.

7. Handlers will then watch the dogs for a turn. A dog that has turned his head and shoulders away from his opponent, regardless of circumstance has committed a turn. The handlers will appeal to the referee to allow the turn. A handler may call a turn on his own dog, or his opponent’s dog in order to get the scratching started. The referee will either allow, or disallow the turn.

8. If a turn is allowed by the referee, he will order the handlers to pick up the dogs free of holds from that point forward. Both handlers must make attempts to handle their dog when free of holds. Either party can appeal to the referee to call the match on a foul when the opposing handler is refusing to handle his dog at any point in the match after the first turn has been allowed.

9. After the handlers have gotten their first handle free of holds, both dogs will then be taken to the same corner where they started, and faced towards the wall. The referee will then begin a 25 second count before ordering the handlers to face their dogs. (If both parties agree, the sponges used for washing may be kept in a bucket of water and be tossed to each corner by the referee. Both handlers must toss the sponges back prior to the 25-second count.) When the dogs are faced they must be shown with full head and shoulders as they were at the beginning of the contest and all 4 feet on the floor. At thirty seconds, the party whose dog committed the first turn will be ordered to release his dog for the first scratch of the contest. A ten count will then begin to count the dog out. During those ten seconds, the dog must go across and take hold of his opponent.
A handler can release his dog any time after the command is given to the scratching dog. He must release his dog however, when the scratching dog takes a mouth hold. The other dog cannot complete the scratching dog’s scratch by making contact, as the scratching dog still must take a mouth hold of his opponent regardless of when the opponent’s dog was released. Handlers must remain in their corners until the scratch is completed, or the match may be called on a foul by appeal to the referee.

10. After the first scratch is completed, the contest is now a scratch in turn, handle free of holds contest. When the dogs are free of
holds, they are to be handled immediately, and the dogs scratched alternately until one does not complete his scratch. It will have been determined in advance if this is a Scratch to Win, or No Scratch to Win contest. In a No Scratch to Win contest, the match is over when one dog fails to scratch, and his opponent is declared the winner. In a scratch to win contest, after one dog fails to scratch, the opponent’s dog must then complete a scratch to win. If he does not, the match is declared a NO CONTEST, and purse money returned to both sides.

11. If neither dog has made a turn and they are out of holds, an out of
holds count of 10 seconds will commence immediately by the
referee. The dogs are then ordered to be handled by the referee,
and the bottom dog is to make the first scratch. If he completes his scratch, this begins a scratch in turn, handle free of holds contest. If he does not complete his scratch, the other dog must scratch to win, even in a no scratch to win contest. If he fails to complete his scratch, the match is then declared a NO CONTEST by the referee. The only time dogs can fight to a DRAW, is when both handlers agree to pick up game dogs and both dogs scratch.

12. If either dog becomes fanged (tooth hung up on his own lip) the
handler may appeal to the referee to have the dogs parted when
the dogs are in a neutral position. The dogs will then be parted,
and the dog unfanged. The dogs will be released 2 feet apart, in the
center of the pit, to resume the contest.

13. Nothing will be allowed over the wall of the pit, unless agreed upon
by both sides and allowed by the referee. Anything entering the
pit that is not approved will be cause to call the match on a foul.

14. Handlers are allowed to encourage their dogs by voice, hand
clapping, or any other reasonable means. It is not permissible
to use outrageous behavior to spook the other dog or act
without sportsmanship toward the other party or his dog
at any time during the contest. Handlers are not allowed to
deliberately block his opponent from handles. This can be
called as a foul by the other party and the fight declared by the
referee.

15 Any dog that jumps the pit wall will be declared the loser with no further scratches necessary. No dog is required to scratch to a dead dog.

not a lot room for the bs in there.i like

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Originally Posted by turkd3000

not a lot room for the bs in there.i like

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Turk3000,
my thoughts are the same

Thanks guys. What I tried to do when I wrote these is maintain the original intent of the Cajun Rules, while clarifying the points of contention with every show I had ever seen or been a part of that went sour, or every situation people I know had experienced with funny business.

Okay, very nice. I have a few points I'd like to clarify, so let me go through these ...

We'll see if I remember! It has been a long time since I wrote these, or have even looked at them. There were a few rounds of scrutiny from some very active dogmen in different parts of the country before I got them to this stage.

Okay, here is my rundown on the Western Rules you were kind enough to provide:

Rule 1: Clear

Rule 2: I would amend to saying the referee should be agreeable to both parties right at the beginning, before there is a contract at all, rather than "before the proceedings (match) begin."

Rule 3: Very well said. The only thing I would amend to Rule 3 would be to state that all money/forfeit, etc. has to be in the ref's hands a week prior to the event. That way you don't waste everybody's time getting to a show ... only to find that one of the dudes doesn't have the money.

Rule 4: I would add to Rule 4 that any false, implanted, or filed teeth are considered a foul/DQ.

Rule 5: Clear.

Rule 6: Clear.

Rule 7: Clear.

Rule 8: Clear--and good rule.

Rule 9: Interesting deviation from the original rules. The original Cajun rules state that a dog must start at once, and not stop inbetween, even for a second, or he loses then and there. In other words, a 1-count is a loss. A dog who trots over, stops, then starts again to complete a scratch loses the moment he stops for a second, etc.

Rule 10: I would change Rule 10 to say, if neither dog scratches, the contest is a DRAW (not a "no contest"), as a contest did take place ... where each dog stopped the other.

Rule 11: Clear, and good rule, but again, I personally think if two dogs quit it was still a "contest," and a "draw" (which means no winner). For example, suppose two dogs go at it and give blood and heart for 2:40, and both stand near-death. There damned sure was "a contest," and it was absolutely a draw, because both dogs stopped each other. It is a contest and it deserves to be in the record books as such. By the same token, when two handlers agree to pick up, the dogs were just picked up still game. In other words, the dogs decided on the draw when they both stopped, while the humans decided on the draw when they pick up their still-willing charges, and both were legit contests. IMO, a "no contest" would be like (for example) the cops come mid-show and so no legitimate result could be determined. (Only something like that should not have to be put against a dog's record. The other two need to be recorded, as they happened by legit events inherent to a match, and a true final outcome was legitimately made.)

Rule 12: I personally believe the dogs should be unfanged while still in holds. One of the biggest bullshit tactics is to say, "My dog's fanged!", when a dog is in a bad spot, just so the dog can be rescued and have a fang-check done. If anyone has a tape of the old Gr Ch Texas versus Gr Ch Joey fight, you will see Roadblock pull this bullshit tactic to save Joey's ass time-and-time-again. Texas was actually whipping the daylights out of Joey on the head, out-wrestling Joey, and keeping him out effectively. And every time Joey went down, Roadblock would scream, "My dog's fanged! My dog's fanged!", and Kirkland never said shit. And every time they would rescue Joey's ass out of a bad spot ... separate them about 2' ... and then Joey would always nail Texas in the chest on the release ... and Texas would have to pull him out. And Texas did pull Joey out, over and over again, but Joey had a helluva mouth ... and after Roadblock used this tactic ABOUT TEN DIFFERENT TIMES, "My dog's fanged! My dog's fanged!" (no shit, at least 10x this happened), Texas was finally wounded so bad Joey could now get to him ... and so Texas wound up losing that deal. It is my firm belief that, if this bullshit tactic hadn't have been employed, that Gr Ch Texas would have whipped Gr Ch Joey. It was that free 2-foot scratch, repeated over and over, which got Joey into the fight ... without which he was getting hopelessly-outclassed. So I absolutely disagree with this false "separation" due to a fang. The dogs should be unfanged in holds, and if they can't then that is just too damned bad for the fanged dog.

Rule 13: This needs some clarification. When you say "nothing" should be allowed over the wall, that has to be clarified as meaning from the participants. Otherwise, some jerkoff in the audience (who's got a $5K bet he's about to lose) can just throw a beer can in there and save himself.

Rule 14: Clear and I agree 100%.

Rule 15: Clear.

What do you think?

Jack

Good feedback overall.

I think it is a really fine line to put forth a set of rules that is adaptable to the needs of so many complex situations that arise, and getting them so detailed that they end up not beng followed.. These rules are a good attempt at that. I will offer some commentary on each point of your feedback Jack.

#2. In general, I think your suggestion is certainly a best practice, but in reality many shows go down knowing that qualified, reputable people will be pitside that can serve as a mutually agreed upon referee. In fact, not knowing who it is before hand may in and of itself prevent foul play in some cases. I like leaving it open, because invariably if you do not, this will be a point that fanciers deviate on anyhow.

#3. Again, certainly a best practice, but perhaps not always feasable as a "thou shalt" type of rule.

#4. That is actually good input, with which I strongly agree. I would be in favor of amending the rule to add that.

#9. I know what the original Cajun Rules said in reference to a count, but in the scores of shows I have attended, nobody actually uses the rules that way. In general a full 10 count is given for the dog to go and mouth the dog. This is one of the many points that needed clarification in a revised set of rules.

#10/11. I know what you are saying with these two, but "Draw" simply means too many different things in today's world. Two dogs that sniffed each other's asses simultaneously at the 15 minute mark could be a "draw", just like the two who went deep and then stopped. Yes, a contest took place, but not one where gameness was the hallmark of the contest. It was my intent at the time to distinguish between dogs that quit (no contest) and game dogs that under a few possible circumstances did not win or lose, but left the show with the honor of a game dog. In reality, I do not think we can change the semantics of the fancy, so I probably should modify that. At the time I wrote those I felt strongly about a distinction between quitting draws and game draws.

12. I agree with not abusing the system ( I saw the aforementioned show), but I think for safety of the handlers fanged dogs need to be parted. "Referee's decision is final in all matters" carries a lot of weight and perhaps should be added to ths set of rules in Rule 2. In your example, a good ref should call BS, but then again if there is no protestation from the other handler, why should he?. Certainly the other handler has an obligation to his charge to safeguard him from getting pummelled needlessly. This example you presented Jack is a matter of good and poor handling, "unfanging" was merely the vehicle that was used.

13. Why? nothing means nothing unless it is permitted. I see what you mean about a third party gambler though. Perhaps getting rid of the foul piece altogether helps, but then again so does adding "referee's decision is final in all matters". Clearly judgement needs to be utlilized about what the intent of an unauthorized something coming into or leaving the pit.

Overall, I feel like these rules go a long ways to clarify things not covered in the several sets of rules that are called "Cajun", and also promote spotsmanship and fair play beyond any others I have seen.

#2. Agree with JAck
#3. Agree with Jack
#4. Bite should be inspected by the match BEFORE the show by the Ref with opposing party present. If opposing partner sees something fishy (filed teeth, fake teeth, etc, then he should tell the refeeree right there before the show. The opposing party can't see the fake tooth, then do the show, and when he sees he's not going to win, decide to call him on it.
#9. I agree with TFX
#10. I agree with Jack
#11. I agreee with JAck
#12. I say that the handler should try to UNFANG twice while in hold. If not, the referee can try to unfang, if the referee cannot do it in hold, then seperated.
#13. A referee to give a warning for something MINOR. I liked the way M.A.D. and B.Bailey would say before a show, "We're gonna let the dogs decide this one. No minor Bulllshit foul is gonna save anyone."
Also, The original Macho would shoot across so strong and fast that he was literally close to flying out of the box with the other animal and handler. In that case, if he had made contact with the other dog, you would toss them both back in the box.

More good input from Evolution. I actually think I wrote these about 9 years ago, (it was before I moved to my current place). The sum and substance of what we are looking at; with a little minor tweaking, is a set of rules that would govern the pit dog game much more efficiently than anything we have had in recent times. I believed that when I took the time to write these, and I still believe it today. At that time, my partner had a very active pit in the west. We were also involved with the key players internationally in some of the hotbeds of activity. It was our hope to get these rules out there and in use. A few things happened, and they never really caught on. I am far from any activity today where I could promote their use.

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Originally Posted by TFX

Good feedback overall.
I think it is a really fine line to put forth a set of rules that is adaptable to the needs of so many complex situations that arise, and getting them so detailed that they end up not beng followed.. These rules are a good attempt at that. I will offer some commentary on each point of your feedback Jack.

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I agree they're good rules overall, my friend, but I also think a "pow-wow" amongst all of us like this helps to make them even better.

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Originally Posted by TFX

#2. In general, I think your suggestion is certainly a best practice, but in reality many shows go down knowing that qualified, reputable people will be pitside that can serve as a mutually agreed upon referee. In fact, not knowing who it is before hand may in and of itself prevent foul play in some cases. I like leaving it open, because invariably if you do not, this will be a point that fanciers deviate on anyhow.

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Mmm, I see your point, but foul play with a known ref can only happen if a dishonest ref was chosen. If a qualified reputable ref is chosen, then he should be immune to foul play. Also, the point that fanciers "are going to deviate anyway," begs the question, "Then why have any rules at all?" Essentially, you either follow the rules or there are no rules. Thus it is up to fanciers not to deviate, and it is up to the selected officials to have the backbone to foul-out those who do break the rules on the spot. Otherwise "rules" have no meaning.

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Originally Posted by TFX

#3. Again, certainly a best practice, but perhaps not always feasable as a "thou shalt" type of rule.

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Well, but isn't it the very nature and purpose of Rules to be "Thou Shalts" and "Thou Shalt Nots"? :D

If not, what other purpose do rules serve? ;)

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Originally Posted by TFX

#4. That is actually good input, with which I strongly agree. I would be in favor of amending the rule to add that.

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by TFX

#9. I know what the original Cajun Rules said in reference to a count, but in the scores of shows I have attended, nobody actually uses the rules that way. In general a full 10 count is given for the dog to go and mouth the dog. This is one of the many points that needed clarification in a revised set of rules.

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I realize nobody uses it, but they should IMO. Just imagine how many contests would be stopped in time to save the dogs, if it were vigorously enforced?

And just imagine how nice it would be breeding to dogs that "won in 2:10" ... without hesitating on the scratch line for even one second :idea:

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Originally Posted by TFX

#10/11. I know what you are saying with these two, but "Draw" simply means too many different things in today's world. Two dogs that sniffed each other's asses simultaneously at the 15 minute mark could be a "draw", just like the two who went deep and then stopped. Yes, a contest took place, but not one where gameness was the hallmark of the contest. It was my intent at the time to distinguish between dogs that quit (no contest) and game dogs that under a few possible circumstances did not win or lose, but left the show with the honor of a game dog. In reality, I do not think we can change the semantics of the fancy, so I probably should modify that. At the time I wrote those I felt strongly about a distinction between quitting draws and game draws.

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I disagree. I think it is pretty clear what these terms Contest/No Contest mean.

1. A "contest" in the dog world means a fight, so there has to be a fight in order for there to be a contest;
2. A "no contest" means either that no actual fight took place at all, or that the true conclusion of that fight was never achieved (e.g., cops broke it up, etc.);
3. Whether the dogs decide to end their own fight, or if their owners decide to end that fight, it still is a legitimate end to the fight.

With this clear and absolutely logical standard in mind, gameness does not have to be the hallmark of every contest. The simple fact is MOST contests are decided by at least one of the dogs running out of gameness, so if both run out of gameness it still is a legitimate end to that contest. Otherwise, if "lack of gameness" were a legit reason to call a fight a "no contest," then it could be argued that in any contest where one dog quits is therefore a "no contest" affair. This is illogical and absurd. And it is just as illogical to say that if "both" dogs quit that there was never any contest, because there simply was.

Again, with this clear and unambiguous standard in mind, if we look at the situation of two dogs sniffing each other's asses, it would be a no-contest, if that is all they ever did was sniff asses and stand there, because there would be no fight. (No Contest). It's very simple. If, however, the two dogs did fight for :15, and the contest ended with both of them sniffing each other's ass at the :15 mark, then it would be a fight that resulted in a draw at :15, the natural conclusion of which was the inglorious fact that both dogs quit and took a greater interest in each other's asses :lol:

I feel as strongly about gameness as you do, which is why I would be willing to breed to a dog that had a game draw at 2:40, while I would never breed to a dog that had a cur draw in :15 sniffing the other dog's ass :embarrassed:

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Originally Posted by TFX

12. I agree with not abusing the system ( I saw the aforementioned show), but I think for safety of the handlers fanged dogs need to be parted. "Referee's decision is final in all matters" carries a lot of weight and perhaps should be added to ths set of rules in Rule 2. In your example, a good ref should call BS, but then again if there is no protestation from the other handler, why should he?. Certainly the other handler has an obligation to his charge to safeguard him from getting pummelled needlessly. This example you presented Jack is a matter of good and poor handling, "unfanging" was merely the vehicle that was used.

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I do agree there was a lack of handling/balls on the part of Kirkland who had Texas. However, I think there was also the same lack of backbone in the ref. Yes, absolutely, it is a ref's job to call fouls when he sees them! Otherwise, what good is he? I mean, in boxing, can you imagine the idea that a ref should just be "mum" and allow all manner of fouls to go on ... "unless the other boxer says something"? The very idea of this is ludicrous! In boxing, if a ref sees a low blow, it is his job to call it! If a ref sees holding and hitting it is his job to call it! And the same is true for a ref in a dog deal. In fact, any ref that won't call a foul if he sees it has no business being a ref. The only time a handler should even have to say anything would be if a ref does not see it.

On the other hand, I personally think one dog getting fanged is just too damned bad for that dog; it part of the natural events of a contest. If you can't unfang in hold, then you gotta wait till a handle and unfang at this proper separation. Arbitrary separations, just for a fang, are wrong IMO and would be omitted if I were the one making up the rules.

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Originally Posted by TFX

13. Why? nothing means nothing unless it is permitted. I see what you mean about a third party gambler though. Perhaps getting rid of the foul piece altogether helps, but then again so does adding "referee's decision is final in all matters". Clearly judgement needs to be utlilized about what the intent of an unauthorized something coming into or leaving the pit.

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Well, that is why I sought clarification in this, was precisely to call foul only if it is one of the participants or his second, and leave the other instances of crowd control out of the "foul-out" criteria.

In the end, I agree that all decisions of the ref are final, which is why it is so important to choose a ref who 1) is honest, 2) has good judgment, and 3) has the backbone to enforce the rules without any deviation or exception.

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Originally Posted by TFX

Overall, I feel like these rules go a long ways to clarify things not covered in the several sets of rules that are called "Cajun", and also promote spotsmanship and fair play beyond any others I have seen.

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I agree, they're a great set of rules, and they are providing for real clarification on "gray areas" that have always troubled a lot of folks.

Cheers,

Jack

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Originally Posted by evolutionkennels

#2. Agree with JAck
#3. Agree with Jack
#4. Bite should be inspected by the match BEFORE the show by the Ref with opposing party present. If opposing partner sees something fishy (filed teeth, fake teeth, etc, then he should tell the refeeree right there before the show. The opposing party can't see the fake tooth, then do the show, and when he sees he's not going to win, decide to call him on it.
#9. I agree with TFX
#10. I agree with Jack
#11. I agreee with JAck
#12. I say that the handler should try to UNFANG twice while in hold. If not, the referee can try to unfang, if the referee cannot do it in hold, then seperated.
#13. A referee to give a warning for something MINOR. I liked the way M.A.D. and B.Bailey would say before a show, "We're gonna let the dogs decide this one. No minor Bulllshit foul is gonna save anyone."
Also, The original Macho would shoot across so strong and fast that he was literally close to flying out of the box with the other animal and handler. In that case, if he had made contact with the other dog, you would toss them both back in the box.

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We agree on everything, Evo, except that I do not believe one dog being fanged is a legit excuse to stop the contest; it is a natural event that unfolded that is just too damned bad for that dog. If any unfanging is to occur, then it needs to happen on a legit handle (after a called turn). No dog with the advantage, should have to be subjected to a false separation and "re-start" just because his opponent was fanged.

The reality of fanging is one of the reasons I avoid breeding to "lippy" dogs :idea:

Jack

I don't like em too lippy either. The fanging happens sometimes. I like to see the handler try to unfang in hold a few times, after a few times, the ref to try in hold, only after the handler tries, and the ref tries in hold, and the OPPONENT agrees, then seperate them a few feet apart

A little alum on the inside of the lips really helps with the fanging. We were in a show with Bolio's owner and I forgot the alum. We ended up fanged several times. We fell behind as a result and picked up a game dog. We found out 10 hours after the show that the dog had also been fanged on the bottom on both sides. It was the first time I had ever seen one fanged on the bottom. Check for it in the corner fellas, it could cost you a show.

Good idea about the alum!

I've heard of Witchhazel as well

With the exeption of rule #9 I agree with Evolution's thoughts on the rules. Since as long as I can remember people have modified this part of the Cajun rules and used the 10 count at the release on the scratches, and I've seen good game dogs counted out even though they were scratching. If a severly injured dogs is dragging or pushing itself across without hesitation how can we in good concious count it out?

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Originally Posted by STONEWALL

With the exeption of rule #9 I agree with Evolution's thoughts on the rules. Since as long as I can remember people have modified this part of the Cajun rules and used the 10 count at the release on the scratches, and I've seen good game dogs counted out even though they were scratching.

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I think there is some confusion as to what the original Cajun Rules meant. Yes, exactly, an injured dog has 10 seconds to complete its scratch ... BUT if a dog hesitates, for even 1 second, it's over.

The same is true in boxing. If a man gets knocked down and if, once, he shakes his head "no" to the ref, the fight's over. But if he's trying to get up off the floor, and still wants to fight, then he's got 10 seconds to do so.

And so it is with the dogs. In other words, the GAME dog has 10 seconds to haul/drag/roll his ass over there ... but the SECOND a dog makes a cur hesitation, the fight's over.

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Originally Posted by STONEWALL

If a severly injured dogs is dragging or pushing itself across without hesitation how can we in good concious count it out?

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It's as easy to count out a game dog who couldn't get there in 10-seconds, as it is to count-out a game man who can't get up off the floor in 10-seconds.

In fact, that is the entire point of clarifying #9: the 10-count was originally for game dogs trying to get there; the one-count was for any sign of quitting.

Another way to look at it is, if a dog is injured so badly that he cannot travel a few feet to complete his game scratch, then how can we in good conscience let him continue? That would be as unconscionable as letting a man who's been beaten half to death in the boxing ring, and who's taking a 10-count on the floor, "still continue" because he staggered-up at the count of 15.

I mean, unless you want every game dog to die, and every beaten boxer to be pummeled to death, there has to be a "10-count" ... within which time a game fighter can still fight ... but after which time it's over ... precisely because any fighter who can't continue with those 10-seconds "has had enough" (physically, if not mentally).

Jack

good post Jack, i agree 100 %. everybody knows those 10 seconds don't make a dog cur or game. but when a game one doesn't make it his opponent apparently did a good job :)

very nice thread, if only a new set of standard rules would be made

Exactly right, R2L.

When one fighter is rendered so injured that he cannot get back over to his opponent within 10 seconds, it is only good sportsmanship to acknowledge the work of the winning fighter, and protect the losing fighter from further harm, tipping our hat to his gameness if he is still willing to continue.

A fight becomes something other than a "good sport" when the lives of the fighters are no longer valued or protected :idea:

Jack

I agree jack that if injuries are to the degree that it takes more than 10 seconds, that 99% of the time the towel should be thrown in. The point I'm trying to make is how many dogmen will call that game dog a cur if he is counted out while scratching. When he didn't take the count. And I believe the game dog has earned the right not to be counted out. To me taking the count is when a dog hesitates. Maybe the rules should be modified to state that if the dog hesitates then he gets a 10 count. No hesitation no count.

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Originally Posted by STONEWALL

I agree jack that if injuries are to the degree that it takes more than 10 seconds, that 99% of the time the towel should be thrown in. The point I'm trying to make is how many dogmen will call that game dog a cur if he is counted out while scratching. When he didn't take the count. And I believe the game dog has earned the right not to be counted out. To me taking the count is when a dog hesitates. Maybe the rules should be modified to state that if the dog hesitates then he gets a 10 count. No hesitation no count.

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i agree with you if he's in motion w/o no hesitations.

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Originally Posted by STONEWALL

I agree jack that if injuries are to the degree that it takes more than 10 seconds, that 99% of the time the towel should be thrown in. The point I'm trying to make is how many dogmen will call that game dog a cur if he is counted out while scratching. When he didn't take the count. And I believe the game dog has earned the right not to be counted out. To me taking the count is when a dog hesitates. Maybe the rules should be modified to state that if the dog hesitates then he gets a 10 count. No hesitation no count.

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I would have to respectfully disagree. It should be exactly the opposite: ONLY the game dog has the right to a count. The dog that hesitates loses right there. Only if the dog is really trying to get there, does he then have 10 seconds to do so ... and if he can't, then he loses because in this case he's clearly too injured to continue.

First of all, any knowledgeable dogman is going to know the difference between a dog counted out trying to scratch (but so injured he can't get there), and a dog standing there "taking" a count. (If people don't know the difference, then there is no cure for this kind of cluelessness.) If anything, I believe what should be eliminated in our sport is the MISREADING of the original rules. In the original rules, there is no "count" over a hesitating dog; if a dog takes a 1-count, it loses right there. Ideally, the dog either wants to continue immediately, or it does not.

As I said in the last example, if you think about it in boxing terms, this is easy to understand. If a man gets knocked on his ass, the ref is going to start counting to 10, and the man has 10 seconds to get up. Now, he may be wobbly, stumbling and falling, but if he is trying to get up, then the ref will proceed to continue to verbalize the full 10-count ... but if the boxer just sits there and "takes" the count, shaking his head "no," the ref is going to stop counting and waive the fight over right there. No ref is going to keep counting over a fighter just sitting there consciously refusing to continue.

Jack

These are the Cajun rules posted to Yuarena by its Admin. I believe the actual practice is slightly different than written below, though I can't tell you exactly how.

REVISED PIT RULE (Revised Cajun Rules) (Revised DEC 2002)

1. The dimensions of the pit must not be less than 14 x 14 ft., with a height of 2-3 ft. A reasonable scratch-line can be imaginary. Flooring should be carpeted or cushioned. Railings (optional) can be added around, at least 2 feet from the walls. There should be a balanced and adequate lighting.

2. The two parties must agree on a referee/judge before weigh-in and washing. The judge shall oversee the implementation of the rules and all of the mutually agreed terms and conditions. Judge's decisions are FINAL.

3. The winner of the toss-coin will choose his corner and decide whose dog will be washed first; this is all done in the presence of the selected judge of the match.

4. Both parties shall agree on a designated timekeeper, chosen by the referee or the Club. The timekeeper will be the one to record the start of the match, the time a turn called or an out-of-holds count was made. The timekeeper will also be responsible for the thirty second (25-5) Corner-Count and the ten second TO-COMPLETE Scratch. The timekeeper will be the one (if needed/asked) to remind the judge whose dog it is to scratch. The timekeeper's count will be the one officially recognized by the judge, if he did not do the counting himself.

5. Both parties must deposit an agreed forfeit amount to a stake/forfeit holder or to the club to make the match binding and must hand-over the stake/bet before the match. The club's standards of forfeits are:

A. Php22,000 for Default B

B. Php5, 000-7,000 per half libra or a fraction of it, as penalty for over-weight (5t for big dogs & 7t for small dogs), with option to abort or renegotiate at the pleasure of the party who is on weight.

6. The weigh-in and washing will be supervised by the designated judge and handled by your opponent, fifteen (15) to thirty (30) minutes before the match or depending on what the parties have agreed upon (a convention could set a time frame for weigh-ins of participants for practical convenience). "JOY" detergent can be used. The handler/s should wash their hands up to their elbows. Towels can be allowed to dry the dogs. After the wash, NO object, no person from anywhere or anything not directly related to the actual match, must touch or get into contact with both the washed dog and the handler until the match is decided. Bottled drinks, towels, cigar, etc. must be coursed thru the judge and can be inspected by your opponent's side. Any violation of these rules can be called a FOUL. It is advised that collar and leash are removed during the wash and to be worn only AFTER the match.

7. The handler is allowed up to two (2) persons with him. One to act as his 2nd or corner man and other on the opponent's corner. They can also be the ones assigned to wash the opponent's dog.
8. The dog/s once brought inside the pit has to be faced against their opponent (not facing his corner). The referee will then ask both handlers if they are "READY?" and will give the command to RELEASE your dog by shouting "PIT!".

9. The match, basically, is an "alternating scratch" contest to determine the winner. The first dog to make a "turn" will be the first to scratch, alternating with the other dog until one fails to "complete" his scratch within the count of ten (10) seconds and lose the match.

10. A "turn" is granted by the judge when a dog turns his head and shoulder, at the least, away from an opponent in an obvious attempt to walk/run away from the fight, with or without hold/s. The judge can only grant a "turn" when any or both handlers requested one, even on his own dog. All or any "turns" made AFTER the 1st granted turn has no bearing on the match.

11. Handlers are not allowed to make contact with or handle ANY dogs (including its own) during the match. They have to wait until the judge commands them. e.g. "Handle your dogs" or "HANDLE when FREE-OF-HOLDS", etc. Only then can they handle the dogs. In which case, a handler should handle only his OWN dog.

12. Handlers must pick up their dogs whenever they are "FREE-OF-HOLDS" whether or not being told to do so by the judge, as long as there is already a "TURN" granted or "OUT-OF-HOLDS" called by the judge. Handling is done when neither dog has a hold. In case either dog makes a hold while being picked up, the handler must automatically let go of his dog and wait for another opportunity.

13. A FOUL can be called on a handler who intentionally delays or refuse to pick up his dog. A handler has the right to protect himself or his dog when the other fails to pick up his dog.

14. After a handle on both or either dog is made, the 30-second corner-count starts. Both dogs are then brought to their respective corners facing the wall. The judge will remind the handlers whose turn it is to scratch. At the count of twenty-five (25), the judge will command the handlers to "FACE YOUR DOGS" and at the count of thirty (30), will order the one to scratch to "RELEASE!" his dog. After the release, the handler is NOT ALLOWED to touch his dog or step out of his corner. The dog is given ten (10) seconds TO COMPLETE his scratch by either by TAKING HOLD (bite) or RAMMING the other dog in the corner.

* In the event that a dog scratches, but fails to "take hold" of his opponent after ten (10) seconds because the other dog ran away, the judge will consider this a COMPLETE scratch with no winner yet and a resulting scratch-in-turn will ensue.

15. During scratching, a handler must release his dog with ALL FOUR (4) feet firmly PLANTED on the ground and with the hands supporting only the dog's chest. A handler is not allowed the following during scratching:

a) Pushing, lifting, throwing, kneeing or making any motion to make the dog scratch.

b) Covering the dog by any means to prevent the other dog from seeing it; this includes covering the eyes or turning his dog's head away from the scratching dog. Hands on the dog's chest only.

c) Leaving his corner BEFORE his dog makes contact with the opposing dog.


16. It is up to the "receiving" handler, AFTER the command to release, to decide when to let go of his dog, so long as he make sure to release his dog upon contact.

17. During the match, banging on the pit walls, stomping on the floor or making too much unnecessary noise or anything that causes distraction to both dogs and handlers are not allowed. Only voice command, slapping the floor, snapping the fingers or clapping are allowed to cheer the dog. Excessive catcalling, heckling or making derogatory remarks against both dogs and handlers are not permitted. It is the sole responsibility of the handler to tell his side of followers to cooperate with the rules or be slapped a FOUL. Cameras with flash are not allowed to take photos during the match. Any video or photo taking must have permissions from the handlers and judge or from the club.

18. Any dog that quits by jumping the pit is automatically declared the loser, and no scratching is necessary. Likewise, any person found guilty of using "rubs" and the likes, will automatically lose the match at any stage (with lifetime sanction by the club).

19. In case of a dog being "FANGED" the referee will order the handlers to HOLD their dogs while he defangs the dog using whatever means applicable (usually a pencil or ballpoint pen). If this is not possible, he will BREAK UP the dogs using a "break stick" and after defanging, will order to face the dogs two (2) feet apart and released simultaneously. This is not considered a turn or out-of-holds.

20. An "Out-of-Holds" is called when a "turn" is NOT YET called and both dogs were counted-out not in holds for thirty (30) seconds. A dog snapping or a fang snagging a skin but not in hold is not considered a hold. In an event of an out-of-hold count, the referee will ask both handlers if they want the match to be declared a DRAW, if they don't agree, the "DOWN DOG" WILL SCRATCH FIRST (SCRATCH-TO-CONTINUE). If he fails, the other dog must complete his scratch to win (SCRATCH-TO-WIN). In an event that both dogs cannot complete their scratch, the match is declared a DRAW. If the "down dog" makes his scratch the first time, then the match continue with ALTERNATE SCRATCHING, until one fails to complete a scratch and is declared the loser.

* In the event that there is an out-of-hold count in progress, in which case THERE IS a down dog, that dog will automatically be the one to scratch after thirty (30) seconds, regardless if the dogs changed position at the completion of the count.

* In the event that BOTH dogs are DOWN or STANDING from the start of the OUT-OF-HOLDS count, the judge will decide who is the "more AGGRESSIVE or ahead in points" and will consider that dog to be the "TOP DOG"

* If the down dog did not complete his scratch, the referee will then order the handlers to handle their dogs and then count another 30 seconds before releasing the other dog for a scratch-to-win.

21. The club will ACCEPT sponging or any other addition and/or variation/s to these rules as long as BOTH parties agreed to it mutually. Anything that can not be or was not agreed upon can be decided on a toss coin BEFORE the said match.

22. Anyone caught violating any of these rules is automatically FOULED-OUT or DISQUALIFIED. However, it's up to the judge's discretion to give a WARNING or two to the offending party if he thinks it is just an infraction or unintentional. E.g. the referee has the right to INVALIDATE a scratch, break up the dogs or make the dog repeat the scratch. As long as the offense will not affect the outcome of the match.

23. A match or a result will not be recognized unless judged by a dog man accredited by the club.

24. A party may substitute any dog and NOT PAY forfeit as long as he is on an OPEN WEIGHT basis with his/her opponent. In a Semi-Open basis, a "change/substitute of dog" from a specified one will cost you a penalty of Php11, 000 (or you can set a higher/lower mutually agreed penalty), but the match MUST PUSH -THRU. All PURE Strictly-Specific matches (can not change dog) basis will now be considered as OTC only.

25. In an event that the match cannot continue due to some unforeseen circumstances, the match is declared a "NO CONTEST" and the Club will determine another date and place for it, as agreed upon by both parties.

26. Anyone notoriously and consistently violating any of these rules, especially those unscrupulous ones who fail to pay forfeits or made attempt to RUB, will be BANNED from competing and attending future activities of the Club.

IGNORANCE OF THE RULE IS NOT AN EXCUSE! IT'S YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO KNOW THE RULES

Here are my comments on these rules:

1. Flooring should NOT be "cushioned," but carpet only. The scratch line should NEVER be "imaginary," as how in the world could can a referee determine if a dog's feet are placed behind an "imaginary" line? This is preposterous and invites dispute.

2. Again, the judge should be agreed on prior to the contract IMO.

3. Fine.

4. Fine.

5. Fine.

6. Fine.

7. Interesting variation to have "two" seconds (thirds? :) ).

8. Fine.

9. Fine.

10. I have always thought this was bullshit, the idea that a ref can only call a turn "if asked" by one of the principles.
He is the ref, for Chrissakes, and if he sees a turn (or a foul) it is his job to call it. I can't think of any other sport IN THE UNIVERSE where refs have to "wait for someone's permission" to make a judgment call. This is preposterous.

11. Fine.

12. Fine.

13. I agree with this. When I handled Truman, the other handler (Stubbs) sat there watching it like it was TV. His dog (Ollie) came after me and jumped for my dog, and I kneed Ollie out of the way. Some people thought what I did was a foul, but this was bullshit. I made a fast handle, I had my dog, and the other handler wasn't doing his job and getting his dog. When his dog ran and jumped for me and mine, I do NOT have to allow his dog to bite mine, while mine is being held. I have the right to protect myself and my dog, and that is what I did by kneeing Ollie to prevent the contact. That happened several times, in fact, and I think the other owner deserved to be fouled-out for not making handles when they were right there to be made. Good rule.

14. Fine.

(* In the event that a dog scratches, but fails to "take hold" of his opponent after ten (10) seconds because the other dog ran away, the judge will consider this a COMPLETE scratch with no winner yet and a resulting scratch-in-turn will ensue.)
Huh? I don't get this at all. If the other dog fails to take hold, he should lose on a quit. If the dog he scratched to "runs away" then that dog should lose for being a rank cur. Either action is a POS move.

15. Fine.

16. Fine.

17. Fine.

18. Fine.

19. Again, I do not agree with separating the dogs to deal with a fang. It is my opinion that any "defanging" should really only take place in the corner, after a legit handle, or not at all. If one dog gets fanged, that is just too damned bad for that dog, and is part of the natural flow of the contest, which IMO should never be tampered with at all. Any artificial effort to stop the flow of the contest changes the natural momentum.

20. Out Of Holds Counts should be 10 seconds, not 30 seconds, IMO.

21. The issue of sponges should be agreed upon prior to the contract being made, not prior to the match.

22. Fine.

23. Fine

24. Good rule. I have always thought this whole idea of "a substitute dog" is bullshit, in all but the lowest-level of dog matching. For example, if I have a first-time out dog, I don't give a damn what you bring, we're just having a first-time deal. However, IMO, if we are doing a Name Contract, you better bring that Name Dog or you need to pay me a forfeit. For example, if I have a highly-regarded Champion, and from my list of available options I have selected your highly-regarded Champion as an opponent (to further my dog's record), and if I have then wasted 6-8 weeks of my life (time and money) conditioning my Champion to meet your Champion, specifically, I damned sure don't want to go into some "substitute dog," I want your GD Champion!! And so if you don't produce that Champion when it comes time to rock & roll, then I should get some sort of compensation for wasting my time like that. I should NOT have to be forced to get holes in my famous Champion against some no-account "substitute" dog.

25. Fine.

26. Fine.

And I agree, ignorance of the rules is no excuse: it is every man's job to know them!


Cheers,

Jack

Prairie, what you posted is not the Original Cajun Rules. It also clearly states in the title that it's a revised edition that Yuarena did themselves.

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Originally Posted by FrostyPaws

Prairie, what you posted is not the Original Cajun Rules. It also clearly states in the title that it's a revised edition that Yuarena did themselves.

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I know, I just thought it would help further the discussion on alternatives to the Original Cajun Rules.

the dog should be counted out at 10. it is up to the owner to make judgement on the dogs effort afterwards. but the outcome of the contest should not be altered because he was trying Or because "he might be wrongfully labeled a cur" lol. that's just ridiculous. it should end if he stops mid-scratch because he is telling you he might not want to be doing this any longer. good dog or bad dog, it's now your responsibility to stop.

shit I just realized how old these posts were. lol. clicked the link from the other thread and read it all.

I bet even with the internet; or perhaps because of it, if I extended the challenge to post the original Cajun Rules we'd end up with a number of different sets of rules. The Cajun Rules started back in the 20's, and by the time the era of the big conventions came about in the 50's and 60's, they were already modified quite a bit. Let's put it into clearer perspective, the Cajun Rules as they were originally written are over 90 years old. Because of that, most people don't have the ability to even access the original version of the Cajun Rules.

the earliest i ws aware of i believe was written by gaboon trahan?? tahnks for posting TFX.....although....the rule of " a dog not needing to take hold onto a dead dog"...this is where im confused....is a dead dog considered the same as a "down" dog or does the dog need to be literally lifeless? before this rule is in effect?

oh damn black, i thought this was new too! lol

i feel a dog should be aloud to hesitate as long at the end of ten it gets there. sometimes dogs are literally out on there feet. and needs to catch its bearings being grabbed rushed back to a corner turned around and let go with a dog who is injured can cause confusion, now if he does hesitate due to injury and tries to cross i would then pick up said dog the rules are there to allow the dog s to stop if they want to but so is his handler and the handler should have the dogs best interest at heart

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Originally Posted by bolero

i feel a dog should be aloud to hesitate as long at the end of ten it gets there. sometimes dogs are literally out on there feet. and needs to catch its bearings being grabbed rushed back to a corner turned around and let go with a dog who is injured can cause confusion, now if he does hesitate due to injury and tries to cross i would then pick up said dog the rules are there to allow the dog s to stop if they want to but so is his handler and the handler should have the dogs best interest at heart

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Allow me to take the other side of the coin, though :)

We must keep in mind that the point of any contest is to win a fight without losing either dog. With that in mind, we must also keep in mind that any "separation" of dogs for a scratch is an artificial interruption of a fight. Therefore, if upon separation, and after a count of 30 in the corner, any dog is still so fugged-up that it can't cross the line, then the fight should be stopped then and there IMO.

The other dog won, fair and square, and there at least is some chance to save the dog that's still too messed-up to go immediately after a thirty-second rest.

Quite frankly, the argument can be made that there should be no "30-second count" at all, but an immediate release after separation, and if any dog can't respond in time then the other dog who rendered him senseless is the winner.

Jack

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Originally Posted by CRISIS

the earliest i ws aware of i believe was written by gaboon trahan?? tahnks for posting TFX.....although....the rule of " a dog not needing to take hold onto a dead dog"...this is where im confused....is a dead dog considered the same as a "down" dog or does the dog need to be literally lifeless? before this rule is in effect?

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Yes, and Trahan was around in the 20's. It is my understanding when Bob Hemphill went down there to Louisiana in the 20's he was instrumental in helping the local Cajuns hammer out these rules. Gaboon Trahan got the credit for writing them, but it was really a collaborative effort in capturing the way they had been doing dogs down there since the time of the Lightners and before.

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Originally Posted by bolero

i feel a dog should be aloud to hesitate as long at the end of ten it gets there. sometimes dogs are literally out on there feet. and needs to catch its bearings being grabbed rushed back to a corner turned around and let go with a dog who is injured can cause confusion, now if he does hesitate due to injury and tries to cross i would then pick up said dog the rules are there to allow the dog s to stop if they want to but so is his handler and the handler should have the dogs best interest at heart

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Dogs are very much allowed to hesitate on a scratch. They're allowed to jump the box, run and turn their ass around at the last second. Dogs are allowed to do whatever they want on a scratch because we, as owners, have zero control on what they're going to do. Any handler with any eye can plainly differentiate when a dog is out on it's feet, or whatever vernacular you want to use, as opposed to looking for a legitimate way out. I can't honestly say I've ever seen a dog become confused due to being handled and taken back to a corner. Once you consider that happens a lot in the schooling process, or it should, there shouldn't be any confusion on the dog's part on what's going on at that moment.

While I can empathize with the dog's plight, I'm not going to try and make up excuses to try and satisfy some inner justification to keep a dog that may simply not be able to cut that mustard.