K. Allen's Dbl. Gr. Ch. Tornado (10xW) vs. Abraham's Gr. Ch. Queen of Hearts (8xW)

Hypothetical match, obviously. Personal note, I never saw either of these great dogs. From what I've been able to gather, Tornado usually lists as bigger, around 42 lbs pit weight, while Queen of Hearts is usually shown as around 38 lbs pit weight (if weights are given). This would put Queen of Hearts going some way uphill, so what if we could magically level the weights? My understanding is this battle was talked about between both camps but never came off due to the weight discrepancy i.e. Tornado's handlers didn't want to come down in weight, nor did Queen of Hearts' handlers want to come up in weight. I sure don't blame either of them, given the quality of the opposition!

If any of this is incorrect please feel free to correct me, or add facts you know. I was curious as to which dog you think would win if they could somehow have figured out a solution to the weight difficulty. My own thoughts on this are that Tornado was too big & too good (while acknowledging how great Queen of Hearts was too; this is just the way I would wager), but it's only an opinion & mere speculation anyway as these 2 awesome warriors are long gone now. I'm intrigued by truly great dogs & wonder how things would go if they did go.

given same weights boy that woulda been one for history queen from what i know was a destroyer and tornado was very slick on her feet with good finish so that wioulda maybe been the best thing to ever see bitch wise in history i think tornado proving she is still the only one to win 10 as a female it dont get no better so regardless of who woulda tornado did the impossible and got dbl grch and still to this day no bitch has done it just let that sink in lol but you never know at the same time

There have been some bitches that have done it, just not advertised like it used to be.

It has been done and yes, no losses.

The reason it was never done wasn't about weight, it was about two friends having conversation about a 10x and a 8x. Two dogs that did all you could ask. The part of it being offered is very much true but it was conversation. Make no mistake about it, if Ken says yes, Edward would of most definitely obliged him lol. He felt that Queen was the best ever and one of the reasons he even considered it was he had another Ch female that was 44 and they brought Queen up to 43 and she dismantled the catch time. He said Queen was even stronger and more powerful than she was at 38-39. He still said plenty he don't even understand how EZ made 38 so easily because he struggled mightily to get her to 39. In my opinion as a Queen fan I want to say she could of done anything and to be honest you just never know. Tornado had been taking some distance but mostly was in her full control but Edward believed as Queen showed, all it took was 1 bite and everything is different. Tornado is the epitome of a perfect dog, she got it done short, long or in-between. 2 of the best to ever wear a collar, I don't think many can be in that conversation. Tornado, Queen, Molly Bee, Ladystone are always placed just a notch above everyone else. Speaking of which that conversation was something that probably should of materialized, Lady stopped 2 Chs from going to see Tornado. I surely wouldn't of bet but I would of ref for free lol

Why didn’t these lines produce better?

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Originally Posted by Frank43

Why didn’t these lines produce better?

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There is no real line built on them. Most of the queen stuff is really just her being injected into the boyles line up, bolt action crosses etc. I dont think she was really given the chance to stand on her own or really taken back to what made her... bolio boomerang.

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Originally Posted by CrazyRed

The reason it was never done wasn't about weight...Make no mistake about it, if Ken says yes, Edward would of most definitely obliged him lol.

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So what weight would Edward oblige Ken at? If he was willing to come up to 42 I would've thought they'd been hooked. Unless you're implying Ken was afraid to match into Queen of Hearts even at Tornado's normal (heavier) pit weight. Which makes no sense to me lol. Just like it would make no sense to me if somebody told me "If Edward says yes, Ken would most definitely have obliged him." That looks to me like even though Ken was willing to trim Tornado down to 38 & drop her in the box with Queen of Hearts at her best weight, Edward still bailed out. Since we know that didn't come off, either, to me that would imply Edward wanted nothing to do with Tornado even at the lighter weight. So what weight would either guy be willing to settle up for? Something in the middle (which would weaken Tornado a bit while slowing & robbing air from Queen of Hearts a bit)? Unless Ken flat out balked when talking about a theoretical match at 43 lbs after Edward flat out told him his dog would be good to go at that weight, I have to think the size difference had something to do with it.

So I'm clear, I'm just trying to understand what happened, not criticizing you or either dog or either handler. I appreciate your input!

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He felt that Queen was the best ever and one of the reasons he even considered it was he had another Ch female that was 44 and they brought Queen up to 43 and she dismantled the catch time. He said Queen was even stronger and more powerful than she was at 38-39.

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I'd heard this too, impressive.

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Tornado, Queen, Molly Bee, Ladystone are always placed just a notch above everyone else. Speaking of which that conversation was something that probably should of materialized, Lady stopped 2 Chs from going to see Tornado.

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I've never heard of the Ladystone bitch, but if she's in the conversation with those 3 she musta been a good dog indeed. Now Molly Bee...there's a fella on this site, can't recall his handle, but he's forgotten more about dogs than I'll ever know & he saw Molly Bee go & described the match & said she was just unbelievable. I don't doubt it one bit lol. If I can find where he said it I'll try to paste it in here.

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I surely wouldn't of bet but I would of ref for free lol

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Lol. S'a shame it never came off, woulda been a classic.

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Originally Posted by Frank43

Why didn’t these lines produce better?

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If Jack were still on here or replying like he used to, he'd probably say something along the lines of "Dogs tend to revert to the average of what's back of them." This is why you so often see average dogs (at best) coming out of "blockbuster breedings." The pups tend to fall much more closely to what the dogs behind the dogs being bred are like, rather than being clones of the superstar aces that are the sire & dam. Pretty sure this is called "filial degeneration" in genetics. A better bet would be to breed them to closely-related dogs that you felt would nick well for one reason or another. If you did that, it's possible you might get a litter or almost a litter of good game dogs, winners, even Champions. It's happened before. But...

As Black Hand points out, I don't think lines were ever really built on either of them in any kind of systematic way (which is a shame), trying to preserve the good traits in those dogs, cultivate them, & then pass them down again & again. That sort of program takes a breeder with some vision, & sadly I've found a lot of these incredible dogs have gone by the wayside when it's possible they might have been built into living, ongoing monuments of excellence in the right hands.

He also points out Queen of Hearts was never

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really taken back to what made her... bolio boomerang.

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This is what I was saying above about breeding these dogs to others closely-related to them, rather than just random crosses or maybe going for a "blockbuster score" with another ace that's not down from the same lines.

CYJ is the person that posted on Molly Bee.

I cut my teeth on those old Molly Bee-Snooty and Caesar-Molly Bee dogs. Mr. James Edwards told us he drove to Florida to see Molly Bee and could not get to pit side before it was over. He said he was about ten feet away working his way to pit side. The bitch was had been hand picked to stop the great Molly Bee. She was a foul fighting bitch that would go into one's mouth.

Mr. Edward's heard, "Release the dogs". He said less than 10 seconds later he heard what sounded like the the crack of a .22 rifle. When he got to the pit he heard, "it's over". The bitch went into Molly Bee's mouth and Molly Bee broke the top half of her muzzle in half, just below the eyes.

I lean toward Molly Bee because she won 8, and none ever scratched back to her. That is destruction.

There was an older fellow that lived near here that saw Tornado an he had seen Molly Bee and Zebo and Rufus. He said Tornado was the methodical dog he had ever seen. He said the reason some of her matches lasted was she was simply breaking them down until she had a finishing spot, and from there is was quickly over. He said that a dog like that, who had all the answers, would beat the killers 7 days a week and twice on Sunday.

it is one of those fun yet useless conversations. LOL

Thank you so much for all that input! It was CYJ, thank you. I remember the story, that's what I was thinking of, the rifle shot sound...brutal.

Molly Bee was an incredible destroying machine & no mistake. Her name is nearly always atop or near the top of any lists I've seen of greatest ever bitches. You said you cut your teeth on Molly Bee dogs, did she ever throw anything good? I'm gonna sound like an idiot if there's a fire-breathing monster she graced the pit with that I'm forgetting lol. I honestly don't know how she produced.

And all that recollection about Tornado was as amazing to me as Molly Bee carrying a .22 in her jaws, & it jibes with everything I've ever heard or read of Tornado. Just as complete a dog as you ever dreamed about, could do it all: short, long, in-between, game, smarts, mouth, strength, agility, air, finish...checked all the boxes, that one. The list of dogmen she went into collecting her 10 wins is as long & distinguished as I've ever seen too. Awfully impressive. About as great a fighting machine as anything ever walked on 4 legs, I imagine. Those personal anecdotes really breathe life into these old, long-gone hounds.

I'm all about fun & useless lol. Thanks again for commenting.

I saw a video of Tornado's match, the one that ended in 22 min. She was a perfect dog in the [] imo. The other dog couldn't touch her then she would finish. It's crazy how she went into 3 with no damage done to her.

Molly Bee was stolen and if she indeed produced it would have been under the name of another. There was a stretch where every big bad black bitch around was off of Molly Bee. LOL

After a couple breedings to Snooty and Caesar those dogs were bred back to one another and soon most of the dogs that were called 'Molly Bee' was as much Snooty as they were anything. Snooty when bred to the Red Boy dogs made some good dogs. When we crossed those Snooty-Red Boy dogs to the "Molly Bee" dogs we got some good ones again.

The guy that turned me onto was Mr. Edward's go to guy and had some nice ones bred down off of Molly Bee. The family was low percentage but when you had one, you had one, and could ride up and down the road with anyone.

I have often wondered if she had not been stolen and her puppies were attributed to her, whether she was a producer or not? Who knows?

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Originally Posted by Frank43

Why didn’t these lines produce better?

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When you say produce better, do you mean being more commercial or known? Because all 3 had offspring and offspring off them that competed and won but weren't mainstream known besides to their local areas. Tornado just didn't get bred enough, the others Molly Bee, Queen and Ladystone all had kids compete and win and produce more.

Not directed to me but I will offer up....

Molly Bee had Red Lady and a few more winners. In turn there were some winners but by her not being bred that many times (bred as Molly Bee) the offspring were not passed out to the masses. It was a tight circle not by choice (as Mr. Edwards sold a lot of dogs, even after his death he may still be in the lead, just saying) but because there simply not enough to make a dent in the production world.

And the breedings that were known were not high percentage litters, and that goes to the male used as well. Like Snooty to the Red Boy family was much higher 'good dog per litter' percentage than Snooty to Molly Bee.

The factor in that Mr. Edward's leaned over to at least fifty of his closest friends and said "I'm going to be honest with you, Molly Bee was off so and so and so and so" And those people all know the true breeding of Molly Bee, even though several versions were provided.

So not knowing how she was bred meant (even if she had been bred as Molly Bee) the best route would be best dog to best dog or producing dog to match dog, which does not take long to peter out, thus leaving the impression 'she did not produce'.

If that makes sense.

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Originally Posted by skip11

I saw a video of Tornado's match, the one that ended in 22 min. She was a perfect dog in the [] imo. The other dog couldn't touch her then she would finish. It's crazy how she went into 3 with no damage done to her.

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You're not the first person I've seen hold the opinion that Tornado was a perfect dog in the pit. Her battle record is unbelievable, all the facets & angles of it. Like you said: crazy!

She must have been some war machine. An all-time great, for sure.

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Originally Posted by Oakgrove

...the breedings that were known were not high percentage litters, and that goes to the male used as well. Like Snooty to the Red Boy family was much higher 'good dog per litter' percentage than Snooty to Molly Bee...factor in that Mr. Edward's leaned over to at least fifty of his closest friends and said "I'm going to be honest with you, Molly Bee was off so and so and so and so" And those people all know the true breeding of Molly Bee, even though several versions were provided. So not knowing how she was bred meant (even if she had been bred as Molly Bee) the best route would be best dog to best dog or producing dog to match dog, which does not take long to peter out, thus leaving the impression 'she did not produce'.

If that makes sense.

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Makes total sense. Thanks for sharing all that, the inside scoop.

I saw Tornado go (10th) dog showed everyone that night that she was game as hell also..
Pit artist, even though she had had ran into a good Giroux dog nothing could hold her back.

North Strong.

I love eyewitness statements like this, thanks for posting. She must have been game going into one of Andre's charges; as I understand it, he had some fine head dogs himself. Tornado is a true legend.

Cool quote at the bottom. Where is it from if you don't mind my asking?

@STA8541

I'm real sorry, I had not seen your question. I don't have plenty time during the week and lately even the weekends are
way too short...(I need/have to call a cpl of ppl for the mills) I will, please bare with me.

As for the quote, it's from a poem from Mackay (English)
Lovely set of words, I'm happy you enjoyed them as well.

As for Tornado's show it was a Giroux bloodline (Via Ti Mousse, Corvino bloodline itself) that was
placed in the box with her. Andre had been dead at that time for over a dozen yrs.
In fact it got so weird in the end, someone actually had Allen stop madness (Tornado) picked up to stop the match so she wouldn't die in the end.
The match was more or less finished (a handle had been done) but a wager was placed that Kenny Allen did not really think much about it.
Which was, Tornado couldn't finish her in the box, so he figured it was as good as done... With a little time.
What he did not take into account was his dog was not used the weather we have up here in the winter, late fall as it was.
At the rate she was going to finish her,, she would have burnt herself out so much, she (they were hoping) would have started to get too cold, with using stored energy being used up hypothermia starts to set in and eventually die from the cold, not the show. It did not help the condition she was in after that battle as well. To me, she showed that night to all that thought she might not be able to take what she dishes out. She sure showed everyone that night, she was as game as any and better than most
Finally (Good dogman) said enough of this bullshyt, either pick up your dog or its over.
We will get a handle and is your turn to scratch, do you want to see if your dog is really Deadgame or prefer a loss, game. Picked up.
Made no difference to me, because after they picked their dog I believe they succeeded with what they wanted to do.
I never got anyone to tell me what happened to Tornado after that match... They said she died a few months later, but I think maybe sooner and they just never said anything about that.
Again this is just my thoughts,i can not prove it, no matter the dogmen up here at the time really believed they succeeded.

Long story short, she was an awesome dog, and after seeing her, I can't imagine her losing to any other female her weight.
Now that's a bold statement as there were some great bitches during her reign and some just before that.2 that come to mind Shady Lady, Q of H's (weight will vary) but quality of bitches ? Extraordinaire

North. Strong

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Originally Posted by North Strong

@STA8541

I'm real sorry, I had not seen your question. I don't have plenty time during the week and lately even the weekends are
way too short...(I need/have to call a cpl of ppl for the mills) I will, please bare with me.

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No apologies and no worries man, we're all busy, totally get it. Thank you for your detailed reply.

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Originally Posted by North Strong

As for the quote, it's from a poem from Mackay (English)
Lovely set of words, I'm happy you enjoyed them as well.

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Thanks for the info about the quote, they really are and I did.

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Originally Posted by North Strong

To me, she showed that night to all that thought she might not be able to take what she dishes out. She sure showed everyone that night, she was as game as any and better than most

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Wow...can't thank you enough for sharing that story, really appreciate it. She never ceases to amaze, ol Tornado. The more I learn the more awed I am! Accords perfectly with what I heard about Andre's dogs: they will test you, win lose or draw! To me, gameness is more important than an undefeated record, and not just in pit dogs, talking boxing, thoroughbred racing, and so on. When I see "undefeated" I think things like "Who'd he beat?", "How'd he beat em?", and "How many times did he beat em?" Maybe we're just looking at the best of a bunch of stiffs, or maybe we're looking at a frontrunning cur that'll quit if he has to take what he's dishing out (maybe even close to what he's dishing out), or gets tired, or hot, or whatever. Doesn't mean they're not as great as the record indicates either, just that I like to see what's in the tank too. Obviously with Tornado we don't have to guess. I want guts and ability, sure! But ability without guts seems to me not the point of the whole thing. Nice to know Tornado was game as well as athletic and smart.

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Originally Posted by North Strong

Long story short, she was an awesome dog, and after seeing her, I can't imagine her losing to any other female her weight.

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She sure was, and I can't imagine her being licked by any bitch her weight (or smaller) either. An opinion shared by many, I would imagine.

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Originally Posted by North Strong

Now that's a bold statement as there were some great bitches during her reign and some just before that.2 that come to mind Shady Lady, Q of H's (weight will vary) but quality of bitches ? Extraordinaire

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It is and there sure were and that pair are great as well, no doubt about it; in fact, the latter is why I posted this theoretical match in the first place.

Do you know anything about Ken Allen that you feel comfortable sharing? If not, totally cool. This guy had (or was associated with in some way, not crystal clear on the connections) 3 of my historically favorite dogs: Tornado obviously, Gr. Ch. Robert T, and his son Ch. Robert T Jr. I'd imagine most dogmen would probably give their eyeteeth to have just one hound like this in their whole lives! How in the world did this guy wind up with (or get associated with) THREE all-time great, masterful, longwinded, game, smart, ace head dogs (all of whom have classic wins over super opponents)? Was it just dumb luck? Was he really astute judging breedings? I'm aware the guy had $$$, so maybe he had a big yard and some good blood just nicked by sheer force of numbers? I dunno. I say this because when I hear "all time great dogmen" discussed, rarely do I see Ken's name in there, right or wrong. I just wish I knew more, but you may not know anything more. Wish I coulda been there!

Anyway, thanks again for the fantastic historical account, it was great.

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Originally Posted by STA8541

No apologies and no worries man, we're all busy, totally get it. Thank you for your detailed reply.



Thanks for the info about the quote, they really are and I did.



Wow...can't thank you enough for sharing that story, really appreciate it. She never ceases to amaze, ol Tornado. The more I learn the more awed I am! Accords perfectly with what I heard about Andre's dogs: they will test you, win lose or draw! To me, gameness is more important than an undefeated record, and not just in pit dogs, talking boxing, thoroughbred racing, and so on. When I see "undefeated" I think things like "Who'd he beat?", "How'd he beat em?", and "How many times did he beat em?" Maybe we're just looking at the best of a bunch of stiffs, or maybe we're looking at a frontrunning cur that'll quit if he has to take what he's dishing out (maybe even close to what he's dishing out), or gets tired, or hot, or whatever. Doesn't mean they're not as great as the record indicates either, just that I like to see what's in the tank too. Obviously with Tornado we don't have to guess. I want guts and ability, sure! But ability without guts seems to me not the point of the whole thing. Nice to know Tornado was game as well as athletic and smart.



She sure was, and I can't imagine her being licked by any bitch her weight (or smaller) either. An opinion shared by many, I would imagine.



It is and there sure were and that pair are great as well, no doubt about it; in fact, the latter is why I posted this theoretical match in the first place.

Do you know anything about Ken Allen that you feel comfortable sharing? If not, totally cool. This guy had (or was associated with in some way, not crystal clear on the connections) 3 of my historically favorite dogs: Tornado obviously, Gr. Ch. Robert T, and his son Ch. Robert T Jr. I'd imagine most dogmen would probably give their eyeteeth to have just one hound like this in their whole lives! How in the world did this guy wind up with (or get associated with) THREE all-time great, masterful, longwinded, game, smart, ace head dogs (all of whom have classic wins over super opponents)? Was it just dumb luck? Was he really astute judging breedings? I'm aware the guy had $$$, so maybe he had a big yard and some good blood just nicked by sheer force of numbers? I dunno. I say this because when I hear "all time great dogmen" discussed, rarely do I see Ken's name in there, right or wrong. I just wish I knew more, but you may not know anything more. Wish I coulda been there!

Anyway, thanks again for the fantastic historical account, it was great.

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Do you know anything about Ken Allen that you feel comfortable sharing? If not, totally cool.

I can tell you this... And it will sound like, " oh that's dumb, just about any dogman would say that..." But I don't have time as I need to get to bed soon. I will get back to you with indirect response to this reply later on.

I once asked him, "sir do you see yourself doing dogs for a long time or basically seen enough to think or feel, I've seen it, done it, all ?"
His reply at the time was, (as I would always do that) "Ken, Ken, Kenny that's my name (not sir,) " this was not long before he passed away (90s) His response was exactly this, may not be verbatim, but I'm getting the point across as best I can.
"I will have/do the dogs until the day I die..." Not much later, I was told he died, doing exactly what he loved.
So as it seems now the man was not only a good dogman but prophetic lol.
Talk soon.

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Originally Posted by North Strong

I once asked [Ken Allen], "sir do you see yourself doing dogs for a long time or basically seen enough to think or feel, I've seen it, done it, all ?" His reply at the time was, (as I would always do that) "Ken, Ken, Kenny that's my name (not sir,) " this was not long before he passed away (90s) His response was exactly this, may not be verbatim, but I'm getting the point across as best I can. "I will have/do the dogs until the day I die..."

Not much later, I was told he died, doing exactly what he loved. So as it seems now the man was not only a good dogman but prophetic lol.

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That's fabulous, thanks so much for sharing! Definitely get back to me on anything you want to share, I miss the old-time dogmen mentality. Or just direct message me if you want and if it makes it easier.