What are signs that you for!..?
For example; What signs do/can you look for to see if your pups are going to have a hard bite!....?
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What are signs that you for!..?
For example; What signs do/can you look for to see if your pups are going to have a hard bite!....?
None really. Raise them up happy and healthy, keep them wormed, free of fleas and ticks, and a good diet.
Plenty of exercise, plenty of rest.
After all that hard work, time and effort...some of them bite, some of them don't.
EWO
ya but how do you pick the "pick of the litter"?i think jack said after all thoughs years with his dogs he almost always new what dogs were going to be the best dogs.
Well that's because they all work out according to him. Lmfao... :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by kid
I pick by phenotype. Which ones look like the dog focused on in the pedigree. Every once in a blue moon I'll pick a different one but it's pretty rare. It's a gamble with a puppy and no one knows how they will turn out as an adult. NO ONE..... One can guess and be right but it's still just a guess.
You keep them all or place them into good hands and surely a pick of the litter will pop up lol. Jack also bred a family, linebred & inbred on a few dogs who were his "flagship" animals and consistently threw what he wanted out of his animals. You won't know if your dogs will bite hard or not. Some lines are bred around mouth and even that don't guarantee that your pup will bite. Good health, good exercise and one day he will show you how hard he bites. Keep them all and then you will know.Quote:
Originally Posted by kid
I'm looking for the most outgoing, takes charge kind of guy. Then we go from there.
In the working dog world there are several tests that check for nerves. Wait for a group of puppies to be off doing their own thing and toss a set of keys amongst them. (or a drink can with rocks in it, a rattle box of sorts). The puppies that hear it and react by going to check it out is always a good sign. A bunch more. Visit Leerburg.com there is as much dog information there as any other site on the web.
The real issue of choosing puppies is prior knowledge. The guy that bred all the dogs in the pedigree should have a leg up on choosing than the guy that shows up to 'get a puppy'. If the breeding of Great Dog Spot is done then the guy that raised Spot, his littermates, parents and grandparents can basically say Spot did this and that and this little guy is doing this and that so this is my reasoning for picking Spot Jr.
If I show up at someone's yard to make a pick it is a gamble. By going to the right yard the odds are increased, but a gamble nonetheless.
DTA's Kasai was a Bolio bred dog that threw mouth. No matter what he was bred to he created mouth or amped up mouth if it was there. After a number of litters there was only one dog that had below average mouth. His two littermates could really shut it down (guess which one was mine). So after seeing each litter with above average to freak mouth we knew we would get mouth. But in reality we THOUGHT we would get it based on what we had seen previously. We really did not KNOW.
EWO
Your ignorance and inability to see quality in a litter is your own.Quote:
Originally Posted by AGK
MOST people, who have bred their own line (another key element that removes you from the discussion ;)), built a line on a particular dog (or small, related group of dogs), based on traits they set out to isolate, harness, and replicate.
Only a blind man (or a dullard) cannot quickly see in their own pups, in their own line, which they developed with purpose over the years, which individuals express those traits more than others :idea:
So yes, the common fool in dogs, running a hodgepodge of "other people's dogs" ... that he buys, collects, and keeps "mixing randomly together" ... never keeping or isolating anything ... will NEVER be able to see in his pups ... with the kind of clarity that a man who's bred his own line will be able to see in his dogs. Never in a million years.
No one follows you for a reason AGK: and the reason is you've never said or done anything worth emulating ... remember that ;)
If you are breeding dogs well, there should be several fine picks in the litter, not just one.Quote:
Originally Posted by kid
Still, there can sometimes be pups which are exemplary.
Whether they are "game" or not should have been resolved in the breeding decisions made on the way up the genetic tree to where you're at.
The more solid the percentages behind you (meaning the parents + their littermates; grandparents + their littermates, etc.), the less you even have to worry about that.
The bigger holes in the percentages behind you, the more you will have to worry about gameness (and the less reason to even make the breeding in the first place).
If you have a truly high-percentage, quality line you aren't "hoping" they will be game, you're pretty much confident that your pups will be gamer than the common bullshit out there.
What you're tinkering with is the ability on top of the gameness.
Some pups will simply be stronger and better than the others.
For ability, you're pretty much narrowing it down to strength, speed, and intelligence.
The breeder himself has to have a respectable degree of the latter in order to properly assess these traits.
The balance/stance of the pups; how they move; how they play; what they do.
If you are breeding your own family of dogs, and have repeatedly and consistently raised litters off the same line, all bred for the same style/purpose, then YES, you should easily be able to spot those pups who have achieved the "genetic bullseye."
Most of your pups should "hit the target," but there will be one or two who may hit the bullseye (or pretty close to it).
But if you're just randomly breeding dogs together, from different lines, with different traits, and with differing percentages behind them (that mostly can't even hit the target), then you're crap-shooting and not being very focused in your genetic selection.
Jack
Cant' add much to what Jack just said, and I agree with him. I've only recently (last 2-3 years) seriously become more focused and cut the BS from what I thought I knew and what I actually do know. With that being said, I speak from new spawned experience that he's exactly right. Picking from a family, old and established as his became, or from one like mine, that is relatively newer, the more you KNOW FOR A FACT about certain dogs in that family, especially from birth to maturity, the easier it is to pick the "good ones" from that family.
I will add however, for an different perspective, that picking a pup, from a litter of a family I am not familiar with would of course, be extremely different. I would pick a sharp acting individual with a keen eye, fluid movement and great structure. Crap, what else could I pick? I don't know the line right?
I agree to an extent on not knowing how they will turn out, but then again, knowing more about my own dogs, I do not by into most people's notion that "how they act as puppies don't mean shit". It does mean something. I've recently had some young pups, 11 weeks old, that could bite like I've never seen before at that age. It was unbelievable. However it was not a shock, as they come from two parents who both were 8-9 mouths on a scale of 1-10 and both of them come from two - not one, but TWO parents who could also bite.
I remember once Jack saying something about watching his dogs eat, as pups and how they ate and used their mouths. I've picked that up and have used that for about 3 years now and it's holding true. I feed raw, so these pups (8-9 weeks) that can bust up thigh bones from a chicken, do, most times, present a harder adult mouth than those who have to chew and chew and chew all day to get anywhere.
Food for thought
Ill go for the most quite and non out going ones lol. my picks have been nothing but kennel wreckers.
Personally I do not think a person can accurately predict what a dog will be when they are 6-7-8 weeks old. One can put all the odds in his favor and can end up with an exceptional litter. Once can know all there is to know about the family from generations 1-6 or to 8 or to 10.
He can believe this particular puppy will do this or do that, and he can even say I told you what he would do some years later. But he didn't know.
I have always questioned high percentages because of the variables involved. (Laboratory background) The breeder can be the absolute best. The family can be absolute best. And in turn the dogs can be the absolute best.
No breeder keeps everything.
The variable I always question is finding an extremely high percentage of people who will afford the breeder, the family and the dog the opportunity to shine through. If I go to a show, or a gathering, or in a forum or wherever, and 7 out of 10 people are basically morons the odds of those other three getting enough dogs to maintain a high percentage of a family is a stretch.
At some point people drag down the family name.
EWO
good stuffQuote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
The 1 who keeps his/her littermates ALL at bay after getting ganged up on is usually the hardest biting and the slickest IMO
I understand what you're saying: in the strictest, Cartesian, sense of the word "knowledge," no one can know anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by EWO
If you want to operate under the same high standard, set by René Descartes, famous French philosopher, you could be deceived as to everything you think you know.
According to René Descartes, he might have not really existed as a "man" himself.
He could be a brain in a vat, and all of his senses that he thinks he has could be illusions.
The only thing René Descartes could absolutely, positively, know is that "there is thinking going on" ... and for there to be "thinking" going on, René Descartes allowed himself only one logical conclusion: I think therefore I am.
If you want to hold true knowledge to this high of a standard, you're right, none of us knows absolutely anything, except that there is thinking going on and that "we" are the one doing the thinking.
So within this context, I agree with you.
That admitted, I agree ... even the best breeder can't "know" how his pups are going to turn out; but can have a very educated guess :mrgreen:
Actually, the exact opposite conclusion should be drawn: some bloodlines really aren't all that good. Certain dogmen develop a group of solid, but basically mediocre dogs, probably game (but not too bright and not too talented), but this group of dogs happens to be in the hands of a highly knowledgeable, very competitive conditioner. These dogs will win a lot of matches for this conditioner, but as soon as they get sold, the same group of dogs can't scrape 2 wins in a row together. Why? Because the typical, stupid dog men who get them aren't as good at conditioning, so these mediocre dogs quickly look substandard if compromised by bad keeps, etc. They only were made to look truly good because the quality of the dogs is actually so-so; it was the man's keep and conditioning which were truly outstanding.Quote:
Originally Posted by EWO
By contrast, the breeder who is able to send his dogs anywhere, to all 4 corners of the earth, every continent, in various hands, with varying levels of competency ... so if that breeder is able to send his dogs, literally "everywhere," and when those dogs get off the plane they invariably kick ass, that is a quality bloodline my friend.
Jack