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I've heard from alot of oldtimers that the "RedDevil" blood is the actual line behind the RedBoy Blood .... What's everyone's input on this !
The reason why I'm asking is I use too run that RedDevil blood back in the day & also had some RedBoy ... and to be honest both lines had the same characteristics !!
RedDevil .. http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...php?dog_id=263
RedBoy .. http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...php?dog_id=243
Boomer JR is already a ROM dog? I thought they just started breeding him a couple of years ago.
I can't comment on the thread's subject, as I've never spent any time around the OFRN dogs. What I've heard of them is night and day from what I know of Redboy dogs, but that's just hearsay, and I'm sure everyone's had a different experience with them. RedDevil and the original Redboy certainly favor a great deal, though.
IMO...I believe that the Redboy strain is more Hemphill based. But that's just my opinion! I'll chime in once the topic gets going.
Im not sure if they r the same dogs in a sence, but i know when u cross the turtlebuster to the redboy especially deacon blood u get real good animals and a perfect example would be the plowboy stuff. My team and I r waiting to take our turtlebuster bitch to our boomer male and hope we get good results.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyBoy
I think the only guy trying to say that Redboy dogs = Red Devil dogs is Norrod.
Most of what I've heard about any "rumors" regarding Redboy was that he was a Hemphill-bred dog, but I have no way to verify any of this.
Ultimately, however, my feeling is this: it doesn't make any difference at this point, because enough generations have passed between when any of this was relevant, and now, that "knowing the answer" as to what was really behind Redboy would have no relevance worth speaking about in any dog living today.
So many people have had their "breeder's hand" in the mix, between the original Redboy and Red Devil, and the available dogs today, that "what was behind" either dog is utterly insignificant now.
The only actually relevant thing it would behoove you to know nowadays, has to do with pups on the ground NOW, and to know the answers to the question, "Who bred them and why?"
Really getting a deep understanding of the answer to this question ("Who bred them and why?") will give you a much better indication of how any particular set of pups will turn out ... than will never knowing the truth as to the answer to the time-worn question: "Who was really behind Redboy?" :mrgreen:
Jack
PS: Nice avatar, JohnnyBoy. One of my early mentors, Lineman, actually owned Ablizin's Tiger for the first 4 years of his life. He was a cold dog, until Gerry let him go, and he started almost as soon as he changed yards.
.
Thanks for the input JACK ... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
Ya Norrod was one of the old timers that told me that ...
When I use to live in Canada their was another old timer that lived in Quebec "Pierre Francios" (RIP) he used to be very close friends with Andre Giroux, he told me that he "Heard" the same thing, but he also said that you can't always believe what you hear !
PS: I really love that Tiger Blood, he was a good producer, especially when bred to some Boyles & Limey blood !
I was planning to do this breeding in 2011 http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... _id=387939
but I decided to hold off until 2012 ... "I plan on going to Greece this year with Athena" hopefully if all goes well I will be breeding her this August ....
Then for her second breeding she'll be bred to none other than http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... _id=237503 ... Can't wait for that ! ;)
YIS .. Johnny Boy
So, Athena comes to Greece for breeding purposes, if yes to what blood?
IF YOU LOOK IN THE BOTTOM OF RED BOY YOU WILL SEE THERE IS RED DEVIL IN RED BOY
I plan to soon write the story on Bass's Tramp Red Boy. I seen Red Boy on several occasions as a young dog and old dog. Saw his last serious game test. Saw his dog pulling show against the W. Cable bitch. Saw most of Red Boy's Siblings and knew their owners personally. Had one of his full brothers for awhile. I did a dog show with R. Byrd. I used a Black bitch out of Red boy x Cleo.
Byrd beat this bitch so bad and so fast it was not funny. Reckon he was wanting revenge on V. Jackson for what the Hank dog did to his 2X winner Arizonia Red. LOL
I knew Red Boy's first owner personally that got Red Boy as a pup from Mr. McCloud. Plan to call W. T. and get the name of another dog man that lived in Dillion S.C. This dog man at one time had more Red Boy x Cleo dogs than K. M. When he quit the game sure Katie and Bass and others got those dogs.
There is no great mystery about the Red boy dog. In the Pee Dee Area of the South East. There were three popular Stud dogs in the same time era. They were V. Jackson's Hank/ W. Kelley's Willie/ and Bass's Tramp Red Boy.
Will write this soon. Want to be well rested and go back over some facts checking and make a few phone calls. Until
This will be great stuff, CYJ.
I am sure many others will sure appreciate reading what you have to say.
Thanks, also, for the interesting commentary on many of the dogs you've entered into the database.
Cheers,
The first dog I ever saw in a box was a son of Bass Redboy to a Redboy/Cleo daughter. I believe this is the litter that made Rattler (2XW) which led to the Marlowe dogs Britches/Mr. Bulldog etc..etc.. I didn't have a clue what I was seeing but I was hooked. This dog was called JR. He was beat down and just about unconscious. Some of the older fellows was commenting on the cotton mouth (and the story began) and the lack of durability. And this was
bellowed from down stairs, "If he wakes up I got $500 that says he makes his scratch". He was brought up stairs and when his eyes opened he launched. Amazing. I was just a kid so I am looking forward to the CYJ post. EWO
What I am going to add to this topic as Jack has already said. Will be mostly a moot point. Unless I over looked it I do not see any Red Devil breeding in the original papers of Red Boy. Bass's Cleo bitch shows a Red Devil bred dog in her pedigree called Loposay's Bouncer. But even some will argue or claim that Cleo is a Bullet bred bitch etc. I see also someone has changed Finley's Bo dog's pedigree to show him to be a Bullet bred dog. Just more moot points after 40 years or so has passed. No one knew how the Cotton's Bullet dog was 100% bred. Mr. Cotton puts some papers on him.
One of the stories told pertaining to the Red Boy dog and his siblings. Was that a man with a big Red Bull dog that was passing through, stopped at the Bowman's Restaurant. He saw some of Mr. Teals dogs back up on the Hill behind the Restaurant. He and Mr. Teal struck up a conversation and Mr. Teal ended up buying this dog. This was the dog that was suppose to have been bred to Mcleod's Susie Q. Gal instead of Teal's Jeff. Since Teal's Jeff was no longer living from what I had been told. I never saw Teal's Jeff and Mr. Teal may have had more dogs out on his Farm that I never saw. Since I never visited his Farm do not know. Rowell may know but he is very private.
The final part of the story was added when Mr. Teal was very sick and close to passing. A dog man that knew Mr. Teal had visited him at home or at the Hospital. Asked Mr. Teal again that million dollar question of how was the sire of Red Boy was bred. According to the dog man that is unknown to me. Said Mr. Teal said that the Stud dog was a Red Devil bred dog. Once again the most knowledgeable person pertaining to this subject may be Mr. Rowell or another fellow we knew named Turkey Gamun.
Turkey Gammun spent a good bit of time at Mr. Teals before I ever knew Mr. Teal. He had dogs from off Mr. Teal's yard. He worked for the Florence Morning News Paper in Florence. I probably have his last name spelled wrong. Turkey was his nick name. Now his story was that Mr. Teal picked up a stray run away(believe Tramp was brindle in color) Pit Bull off the City streets. He called him Tramp. Tramp turned out to be a good dog which I believe Mr. Teal matched and won with. Mr. Gammun says that is the Sire of the Red Boy litter and why Bass called Red Boy (Tramp Red Boy). So with so many stories it is all a moot point.
The Red Boy dogs start with Bass's Tramp Red Boy and Bass's Cleo. The Bullet dogs start with Bullet. It is what it is.
For as Red Devil bred dogs being crossed to some of the Red Boy dogs. After the Red Boy line became popular there were some of those crosses made. I know Bass/Jacob and maybe Rowell had some Red Devil bred dogs or some of their friends had them. Some of those crosses were tried in the early 70's and maybe later on.
This is just IMHO. I felt that the C. Medlin dogs to me, were the better choice in that day than just straight Red Boy stock. When the Medlin crosses were added it improved the Red Boy line a lot. Same with the Chavis Jocko and Jocko sibling crosses. A blend of all three has worked very well for some.
I never owned a Medlin dog but the ones I saw that A. Howle had. That were crossed to some Tacoma-Doyle blood lines were outstanding weight pulling dogs. I worked a 70's straight line bred Medlin dog at 46 pound show weight for R. Braddock. His name was Mr. Clean. Mr. Clean was all white with little yellow markings in hair, yellow eyes and Red Nose.
Mr. Clean was a superb built dog with strength and great endurance. That could roll a dog of his weight across a floor like a alligator rolls it prey in the water. Was a very smart dog that could counter any style against him. We had contracted a dog show into A. Brewer on his turf.
When we got there, too our surprise we were into Mr. Pratt himself. With a well conditioned Tiger Brindle male dog that could bite. Before Braddock could get over in the show ring to get Clean set for the pull. Mr. Pratt turned loose on Mr. Clean. Pratt's dog hit hard and deep in the chest. Mr. Pratt figured he had us with maybe another Vindicater type ending. In ole Medlin Carolina Rose style Mr. Clean with that heavy long Bull Terrier type mouth of his. Reach over and took a nice deep nose hold and forced Pratts dog to the side of show ring. After some nice nose pulling Pratt's dog came out of his hold.
Then Mr. Clean proceeded to show that dog what a true Nose to Ear dog can do. Went deep into that Ear drum muscles while still controlling this dog and keeping him mashed up against that show ring wall. Pratt's dog broke the hold a few times to find Mr. Clean right back on his nose and being waltzed around. After about 35 minutes of that with hard pulling and twisting holds. Mr. Clean won when Pratts dog would not make the first scratch back after a fast handle. Mr. Clean never got to show some of his other tricks he had up his sleeve. Why we called him Mr. Clean could get the job done and never get dirty. LOL
Braddock was a very good Coon hound dog breeder and Hunter. Made good money off his hounds had some Nite champions and Gr Nite champion hounds. The pulling dogs were just a hobby thing to him. Do not know what happen to Mr. Clean after that. May have been sold for good money. Wished I had bred something to him. Just more ole timer's crazy stories and rumors of 40 years ago.
The Medlin line was over looked by many including myself and V. Jackson. Mr. Coplin told me I needed some old Red nose based dogs to get the hard bite back in my straight Coplin dogs. The Medlin line should have worked. Most Breeders that have used it improved their stock.
Mr. Medlin/Mr. Teal/Mr. Skinner all were well educated men of the same age and time era. All had their own business. The breedings made by Mr. Medlin and shown in his pedigrees are correct. He was active and knew all those dogs he had and what dogs he was breeding to. One I saw and really liked was the CH Turkey Farm dog. Mr. Teal liked ole Turkey a lot. Mr. Mims/ Cottingham/Robinson/Powell and many others liked that Medlin line crossed to the Red Boy line.
Sorry for my ramblings did not mean to get off the subject that much. Up to late again. LoL
Please... dont stop rambling! All ears here. Great stories and thank you very much for sharing.
Thanks Steely Dan. I should have put that extra info. into a Medlin dog subject. Have got to try and stay on subject. Some may get offended which I do not wish to do to anyone or any dog blood line. All blood lines including the ones I had have their weakness and strengths.
Winning over Mr. Pratt was no easy task for anyone. He had top of the line dogs and won more than he lost. I never saw him not bring a well conditioned dog to a dog show pull event. After the show he asked how Mr. Clean was bred. He just shook his head as there was about a 1/4 of the same breeding that his dogs came from in Mr. Clean's blood line top and bottom with heavy Medlin. Mr. Medlin knew were the good dogs resided in N.C. back then.
The Red Devil line is still around today. Have read on the other site there have been some good results with Red Devil-Red Boy and Sorrells- Red Boy crosses.
If you get into a family of dogs that you like a lot that has those old rumors etc. Most blood lines do here or there. Breed like the papers show. Getting good results no need to change the plan. If not try the rumor route sometimes where there is smoke they may be fire. LOL
The ends results looks good you may be on the right track or just made a new nick that starts a whole new line. Like the over night sensation of the Jocko- Tramp Red Boy- Medlin dogs. Put Tant/Chavis and others in the lime light. The owners of these dogs could care less about all the old dog rumors. Was what was at the end of the chain that really counted. The rest of the out come is how good of a dog manger and conditioner one turned out to be. I was not consistent as V.J. so he did most of that with me helping on the side lines.
You might need to check with a few people from the nc and sc before you put their name up !,!i don't think W .T would want his up .whats that old saying ,(loose lips sinks ships ) even though it is historical .it can get twisted and make hard on some folks drawing unwanted attention.if you know what I mean.
That is a good point. I find it hard to tell stories or history and leave the names out. It makes it difficult to convey and sometimes it lessens the validity but I make it a point to leave the names out, especially if they are active or have friends that are active. The guy that turned me onto dogs way back when has one dog now that is as old as dirt just like him. He stills talks to people and gives advice, and best of all, can flat tell a story. If I put his name out there the current day media could easily consider him the Godfather of the Game, because we all know every bust is a major ring and every participant is a kingpin.
I use 'I know a guy' much more than I would like to but I do not feel comfortable putting names out there. EWO
Maybe initials can be used.Quote:
Originally Posted by waccamaw
I know James Crenshaw was asked (when he wrote his book) to refer to one well-known oldtimer as "The Man from Alabama" ;)
I think these stories are great to read, and they need to be seen to keep the past alive, so would love to keep the stories coming, but I agree we should also be cautious.
Still, we should not likewise be paranoid either. There are many dogmen who have used their real names for decades and nothing bad has happened either. You gotta be guilty of something more than "being in a book," or being "talked about online," to have a reason to be worried. As someone who is familiar with investigation, you either have to be caught in the act, on tape, or set up in some kind of way (surveillance, etc.).
No one is going to haul anyone's ass to jail for being mentioned on an internet post about something that happend 30+ years ago :lol:
Great read thanks
Ever heard of (conspiracy)look up just how far they can take the conspiracy act..
I don't want to step on any toes or have anybody take it the wrong way ,the more you stir a pot of crap the more it stinks .and one thing we all can agree on is the media will take what is said on here and twist every way they can to make the bulldog man look guilty,I think initials are best used .here is another saying used ,that I like (those who need to know ,know !those who don't ,don't need to know!about certain things of course.
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Went back in and removed some remarks and names. Most names listed have passed on. All of this fairy tale and rumors happened close to 40 years ago. LOL Hard to tell a good story event without the fictional names. Will try to be more reserved next time. I to have entered a dog in a dog show where later I knew how it felt to be a one legged man in a ARSE kicking contest.
Don't worry about it too much, friend, I don't think you said anything wrong ... and please don't let the paranoia of some affect the telling of old tales 8)Quote:
Originally Posted by CYJ
It may be overly cautious or slightly paranoid but I still do not feel comfortable with names, and initials make me uneasy. Like wacc said things get blown out of proportion. If I say Joe won Sat. night in :25 minutes and someone goes to check it out. That winner may not even be there but we all know on the 6 o'clock news can report a fit and trim bulldog as being starved. A nick from a briar bush is an injury consistent with dog fighting. A unprescribed bottle of Dex is the steroid that builds up the jaw muscles so the dogs can fight to the death (and every dog man in the world screams cortica not anabolic but the media does not have to explain, only report).
On the flip side, I enjoy reading the history and the names. That is a bit two faced but I enjoy reading it from others but feel uncomfortable doing it myself. I too like, Those who know, know, and those who don't, did not need to in the first place. EWO
I'm glad I was able to see one of the originals.
probably too good of a read CYG but I won't tell lol, definitely one of my favorite stories.
You're right, it is two-faced to say you enjoy it, and then cry about names. Again, big difference between talking about what happend last night, and what happened 40 years ago, LMAO.Quote:
Originally Posted by EWO
For that matter, even with a "last night" post, how is someone going to "check it out" ... unless the authorities already have that person, their address, and already have them under surveillance? If that person is already under surveillance, then he's already in a bad spot. But if he's not, no government agency is going to "gather the intelligence" and "mobilize their forces" over a GD internet post :lol: :rolleyes:
Again, caution is one thing, but paranoia is another, and this is the last I want to hear any crybaby nonsense about names. A cautionary post was made by Wac, CYJ made the necessary adjustments, and that is all that needs to be said. I don't want this thread to get sidetracked into an infinite crybaby-fest digression over "mentioning names."
From this point on, when discussing historical matters of interest, those doing so can use initials, or kennel handles, and that is fine. The fact is, there is not a single case in the history of dog busts that ever was launched from scratch off of an internet post, especially harmless ones like these dating back further than many here have been alive, so everybody please get a grip and just be thankful to CYJ that we have something cool to read on this subject.
This marks the end of the names discussion :idea:
Jack
Fair enough. EWO