Question about Johnston's Goofy

I know that Bolio went into Huff's Rowdy, a 2xw, for his first & only contract match, & that Rowdy died afterward. I have recently learned that Huff's Rowdy sired Johnston's Goofy who was, by all accounts, a fabulous dog. My question to any breeders or former breeders of these animals is: is it normal to breed a dog during his match career? I did not know that was ever done. I thought you matched the dog first, until either his gameness was known or you went as far w/him as you thought he could go (trying for the Champion title, Grand Champion, etc.). And then, only after his matching days were over, was he put out to stud.

Please excuse the stupidity if this is a dumb question, but I was curious if it was ever done. I can't think of any other way how Rowdy could be Goofy's sire & yet wind up dead after a match. Aside from it being 2 different "Rowdy" dogs, but I'm pretty sure Bolio licked Huff's Rowdy, who is the listed sire of Goofy.

Both dogs on top of the european producer list lost their only match
At both shows , straight after the show their respective owners said who want's this dog for free

Ditto STA8541, Sometimes for the good or the bad. Male and even bitch dogs have been bred during their contract careers. Even some quitting or controversial dogs have even had their names changed and still bred. If you had all those older dog magazine's you would see a lot of dogs that are in most pedigrees today that stood the line for one reason or the other.

Before I name a few, I will name some in my own dogs line up. First was Mayfield's Snake, who after I had a litter off Snake. Was told in Snake's third match, while literally putting the coup de grace on a down dog just turned lose and ran from the dog and rowdy, noisy crowd.

For the younger dog men today and not making excuses for that Snake dog. To play it safe, be very aware of a sneaky little device called a Dog Stopper or Stop Attack Dog Siren device. We used them along with red pepper mace, when I worked for the telephone company. Have stopped a serious charging Rottweiler with one of those sirens. Will put their head in the ground, that Rottweiler looked like he hit a brick wall. The owner got pissed with me, cause he perceived I had hurt his dog. Told the owner, be glad the dog siren worked, the mace was coming out next. Then praying and running, all at the same time. LOL

A dog can hear this sound contraption, but humans cannot and is easily concealed in the hand. Have seen and heard of known rough winning dogs on top all the way, finishing off the other dog. Just up and turn loose and run away. This usually is heard of when it is a big money event. Like that fellow that I knew that took out a second mortgage on his house and bet all the money. I might add that poor fellow had a family and took his life a week later from that lose. If that devise was used, that person involved has that man's blood on his hands to this day. Notice I said IF. I find that to be a very strange turn around of events. Most dogs standing on top on all four feet, that are winning whether a Hard biting Cur or Hard biting Game dog will not just up and run away. Not even rank cur yard dogs do that while fighting for dominance. Just,IMHO.

Back on subject, yet two years later got the best match performing bitches I ever owned off the Snake dog. The males even losing good matches were so so compared to those bitches out of that litter. Don up and sold Snake,I and Truett tried to relocate the Snake dog, new owner and dog vanished to be never heard of again. I wanted two or three more litters like that.

Then I have later in V.J.'s dogs the infamous dog Harley I bred up, that BHoss (Ben) rants about on the on lines pedigree site. Then there is Bully Son, Bully Son Jr, Boudreaux's Scrub, the A. Brewer's Snooty dog, J. Crenshaw's Rascal stood the line as a young dog in it's first hard fought match. Rebel Kennels bred from some cull dogs of J. Crenshaw's stock and got some good match dogs.

There was the controversial Snakeman's Pedro dog? Sadly for every good dog we see in these dog pedigrees there will be many controversial dogs shown as well. Why ProjectX was beating on a dead mule over the Boudreaux Blind Billy birth date issue.

This is now hearsay, since I no longer have my magazines, but I know it was reported in the SDJ. A certain known dog that today is in some pedigrees, lost it's match when it quit or jumped the pit. Jack allowed the dog's name in the write up to be changed to the name Spot. V.J. later asked him why? The reply was that dog man does a lot of advertising in my magazine. LOL

One thing I had to learn was when I or who ever points the finger at other dog men's dog yards. I understand we may have to defend ourselves if said person rants on and on ignoring the defective dogs in their own dog yard. That there are four fingers pointing back at yourself. What goes around usually comes around. A older dog man told me one time that the day, another person wishes to start paying half my dog food bill and Veterinarian bills etc. Help clean up these dog runs daily. They can have a say in what I do or do not do with my dogs. Until, these dogs are mine to do what I wish with them. Cheers

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Originally Posted by bulldoghistorian

Both dogs on top of the european producer list lost their only match
At both shows , straight after the show their respective owners said who want's this dog for free

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Got it, thank you.

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Originally Posted by CYJ

Ditto STA8541, Sometimes for the good or the bad. Male and even bitch dogs have been bred during their contract careers. Even some quitting or controversial dogs have even had their names changed and still bred. If you had all those older dog magazine's you would see a lot of dogs that are in most pedigrees today that stood the line for one reason or the other.

Before I name a few, I will name some in my own dogs line up. First was Mayfield's Snake, who after I had a litter off Snake. Was told in Snake's third match, while literally putting the coup de grace on a down dog just turned lose and ran from the dog and rowdy, noisy crowd.

For the younger dog men today and not making excuses for that Snake dog. To play it safe, be very aware of a sneaky little device called a Dog Stopper or Stop Attack Dog Siren device. We used them along with red pepper mace, when I worked for the telephone company. Have stopped a serious charging Rottweiler with one of those sirens. Will put their head in the ground, that Rottweiler looked like he hit a brick wall. The owner got pissed with me, cause he perceived I had hurt his dog. Told the owner, be glad the dog siren worked, the mace was coming out next. Then praying and running, all at the same time. LOL

A dog can hear this sound contraption, but humans cannot and is easily concealed in the hand. Have seen and heard of known rough winning dogs on top all the way, finishing off the other dog. Just up and turn loose and run away. This usually is heard of when it is a big money event. Like that fellow that I knew that took out a second mortgage on his house and bet all the money. I might add that poor fellow had a family and took his life a week later from that lose. If that devise was used, that person involved has that man's blood on his hands to this day. Notice I said IF. I find that to be a very strange turn around of events. Most dogs standing on top on all four feet, that are winning whether a Hard biting Cur or Hard biting Game dog will not just up and run away. Not even rank cur yard dogs do that while fighting for dominance. Just,IMHO.

Back on subject, yet two years later got the best match performing bitches I ever owned off the Snake dog. The males even losing good matches were so so compared to those bitches out of that litter. Don up and sold Snake,I and Truett tried to relocate the Snake dog, new owner and dog vanished to be never heard of again. I wanted two or three more litters like that.

Then I have later in V.J.'s dogs the infamous dog Harley I bred up, that BHoss (Ben) rants about on the on lines pedigree site. Then there is Bully Son, Bully Son Jr, Boudreaux's Scrub, the A. Brewer's Snooty dog, J. Crenshaw's Rascal stood the line as a young dog in it's first hard fought match. Rebel Kennels bred from some cull dogs of J. Crenshaw's stock and got some good match dogs.

There was the controversial Snakeman's Pedro dog? Sadly for every good dog we see in these dog pedigrees there will be many controversial dogs shown as well. Why ProjectX was beating on a dead mule over the Boudreaux Blind Billy birth date issue.

This is now hearsay, since I no longer have my magazines, but I know it was reported in the SDJ. A certain known dog that today is in some pedigrees, lost it's match when it quit or jumped the pit. Jack allowed the dog's name in the write up to be changed to the name Spot. V.J. later asked him why? The reply was that dog man does a lot of advertising in my magazine. LOL

One thing I had to learn was when I or who ever points the finger at other dog men's dog yards. I understand we may have to defend ourselves if said person rants on and on ignoring the defective dogs in their own dog yard. That there are four fingers pointing back at yourself. What goes around usually comes around. A older dog man told me one time that the day, another person wishes to start paying half my dog food bill and Veterinarian bills etc. Help clean up these dog runs daily. They can have a say in what I do or do not do with my dogs. Until, these dogs are mine to do what I wish with them. Cheers

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Thank you for your extensive & detailed response. I never even heard of that dog stopper siren, that's incredible. I love it when an owner who can't or won't control his dog gets mad at YOU for defending yourself! Classic. I would have told him it could've been my sidearm that stopped his mutt, but that's just me. And I totally agree that a dog that is winning all the way should not be jumping the wall. Very strange. I have heard it said that cheating in contests is counterproductive as you are trying to find out which is the more game animal & cheating robs you of that knowledge. But that sounds more like a breeder's perspective (& perhaps a naive one at that). I'm assuming it is done by the handlers, as you say, for the $ they collect from their winning bets plus the contract purse. I think it sucks that some people feel the need to cheat. The game is tough enough as it is w/out that nonsense.

I guess as to breeding culls & dogs standing the line & etc., whatever goes into gameness, genetically, can get rescrambled in a positive way w/certain breedings, at least sometimes. I really can't figure it out! I would have a hugely hard time breeding a dog that did that, but that doesn't mean you can't get good results now & then. Obviously, it happens.

What was controversial about Snakeman's Pedro? Was he labeled a front-running cur or something? I only ever heard he was a mighty fine dog; perhaps now I'M being the naive one! I do know there are some controversial dogs, especially ones that are deemed great. Going Light Barney leaps to mind, but there are many. You hear all kinds of stories you can hardly get to the end of trying to untangle them! I saw an article on Panama Red that swore up & down there were all kinds of shenanigans w/that dog, for example. And I had no idea somebody tried to falsify Blind Billy's birth date. I need to get up to speed, obviously, I'm way behind the curve here!

There are always going to be a good percentage of defective dogs in everybody's yard; I have no idea why anyone would try to point the finger about that. Just breed your own dogs & let the matches tell the story of how well you are doing. I know it can get irritating listening to some fella pop off all the time. Totally agree w/you: what goes around, comes around. Some people call it karma, others the universe restoring the balance. Me? I call it divine justice. Goes on long enough, you usually see folks like that get their comeuppance, in my experience. Thanks again for your response.

Ditto Sta8541. I believe most of what was said about the Pedro dog was in J. Crenshaw's book. May have been also in the SDJ. One argument was that all or some of the matches were faked by T. Davis (Snakeman). Tar Heel Matt and Fat Bill would be more up to date on that.

Another rumor on the Panama Red dog was that the V. Jackson Hank and Panama Red were full sibling brothers. The argument Project X was having was the birth dates of Tudor's Dibo and Blind Billy. That Blind Billy's birth date was before Tudor's Dibo according to a phone conversation with D. Mayfield and F. Boudreaux. Tudor bred Dibo for awhile under the registered name Tudor's Runt. There was a actual Tudor's Runt, so some got dogs off Runt and some got dogs off Dibo. From what I was told. LOL

I saw on the other site a tale supposedly told by Mr. Lonzo Pratt himself that the Jocko/Argo/Apples litter were 100% his breeding not the V. Jackson Hank dog. I do know that Mr. Chavis did have one or two Lonzo Pratt dogs. One called Tarzan. Grady Cummings told me and J. Spruill at Grady's home that he took Mr. Chavis to visit Mr. Pratt. At the time do not remember if he said if Mr. Chavis bought some dogs.

For as that dog siren, would not be the handler using it, but someone in the crowd down near the dogs. To direct it at the top dog. When the dog game quit using good qualified referees and talking to the spectators before hand. Some last dog shows I saw, became nothing more than crazy, screaming, sports events. Someone miles away on a dark quite night could hear the whole event. Johnny Law soon on the way. Was what happen at that last Termite match. The one I spent a long night hiding in a Alligator Swamp, almost falling into a two story deep Canal. Cheers

Faked matches? Wow. I guess 9 wins is a bit much to swallow. Not that it isn't possible, it surely is, but if there isn't any verification of some of them I suppose a flag might go up. I wonder how many were faked, if any? All of them? Amazing. Here I am thinking Pedro is one of the all time greats! You can see the vast depth of my dog knowledge, I'm sure! I feel like an idiot!

I had never heard of the dog called Tudor's Runt, nor that Tudor bred Dibo under that name. This is what I meant when I said game dogs are a mystery Sherlock Holmes could hardly get to the end of! That Panama Red article was by Bill Rushin. That's also interesting about Mr. Chavis & Mr. Pratt, thank you for sharing that.

And that makes sense that when the game stopped using qualified referees cheating became more pronounced. I'm w/Jack on this & have been since before I knew Jack: the game could use some form of regulation; it doesn't need to be legislated against. That way we can get qualified people in there who know what they're doing. Will there still be cheating? Sure; there is in prizefighting, right? But you can bet it's a lot less than it was in the days gone by when they had to hold secret bouts in warehouses & on river barges hoping not to get busted. Not to mention all the hollering & screaming you're talking about, that's awful! So much for the dignity of the noble canine. You were at the last Termite match? Ducking & dodging through a swamp at night?! Man alive...that is some story! I am glad you made it home in one piece, sir. Wow.

The story with Pedro was Crenshaw rolled him and he wasn't nothing special then sold him I believe its in Crenshaws book have to dig it out and look, any new owner rolled or matched him can't remember again nothing special. Then Pedro got heart worm and was sold again and next thing ya know Gr.CH Lol. That s the short version I'll see if I can find a link to the story.

Thank you very much, sir, I appreciate the post. Maybe he was just a late bloomer? I know some dogs take longer than others to get going. Which doesn't mean the stuff about Pedro can't be made up, obviously.

A lot of things are made up for various reasons. CH.Deep Throat Dolly, B Line kennels ect....Believe what you see.

Pedro was never labeled a 9xw anywhere until pedigrees online. You can't take those pedigrees as truth. The Soo Evil dog that FB won 4 or 5 with was TVK's roll dog, and FB only ended up with the dog when TVK was going to cull him. There are all types of things happening with dogs.

"Believe what you see."

Totally agree. Especially given the seemingly-endless capacity for deception amongst (at least some) dogmen. Not judging them for their reasons, only that the practical end of things is that it makes it tough to sort out just what the heck is actually going on w/matches & match records, as well as breedings & pedigrees. What is the deal w/Deep Throat Dolly & B Line Kennels? I probably don't wanna know, given the context it can't be anything good!

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Originally Posted by FrostyPaws

Pedro was never labeled a 9xw anywhere until pedigrees online. You can't take those pedigrees as truth. The Soo Evil dog that FB won 4 or 5 with was TVK's roll dog, and FB only ended up with the dog when TVK was going to cull him. There are all types of things happening with dogs.

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Wow. Thank you for that information, this board has been extremely helpful. Like all performance animals, I suppose, there are truly all kinds of things going on w/the dogs.

I am not a breeder , although I have bred a couple of winners.
my limited experience is that performance and producing are not as closely related as one would think
although it is still my believe that in the end breeding performers the actual percentage of performing animals within your line will increase
but breeding 2 killers wont give you a bunch of killers

but at least breeding performers and some basic thinking can give a litter were a few are worth a small bet

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Originally Posted by STA8541

I know that Bolio went into Huff's Rowdy, a 2xw, for his first & only contract match, & that Rowdy died afterward. I have recently learned that Huff's Rowdy sired Johnston's Goofy who was, by all accounts, a fabulous dog. My question to any breeders or former breeders of these animals is: is it normal to breed a dog during his match career? I did not know that was ever done. I thought you matched the dog first, until either his gameness was known or you went as far w/him as you thought he could go (trying for the Champion title, Grand Champion, etc.). And then, only after his matching days were over, was he put out to stud.

Please excuse the stupidity if this is a dumb question, but I was curious if it was ever done. I can't think of any other way how Rowdy could be Goofy's sire & yet wind up dead after a match. Aside from it being 2 different "Rowdy" dogs, but I'm pretty sure Bolio licked Huff's Rowdy, who is the listed sire of Goofy.

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To answer your original question, I am assuming they are the same dog.

As to whether people breed dogs before matching them, not usually, though I myself don't think it affects much. (You might want to read an experiment I personally did in the thread Does Breeding Affect Performance?.)

As far as breeding performance dogs goes, if you're LINEbreeding, then the dog you're linebreeding on should be one helluva good dog. If you linebreed on mediocrity, you'll get mediocrity. If you linebreed on greatness, you will get greatness. The twist (that throws so many people off) is that you won't ALWAYS get great dogs, but an average dog linebred on a great dog can and will produce great dogs ... especially if he's bred to relatives who have this same great dog in there ... whereas an average dog linebred on average dogs never will.

People who say linebred dogs can't fight only say this because the dogs they linebred on SUCK. I can assure you that dogs that are linebred CORRECTLY not only can fight, they can outproduce the daylights out of most mixed-bred mutts.

The key to keeping a family of dogs in the winner's circle is simply this: A GOOD EYE for a dog and GOOD TASTE in breeding decisions.

If you don't know what a good dog looks like, you will never breed good dogs consistently.
If you don't make intelligent breeding decisions, you will never breed good dogs consistently.

But if you know what a good dog looks like, and if you make intelligent breeding decisions ... which means MANAGING THE GENE POOL YOU HAVE ... and KEEPING the good in there ... then you can breed good dogs perpetually, for as long as you want.

But the "good" has to be IN THERE, genetically, in order to do this; you can't make "something" out of nothing.
That "something" has to be IN THERE, which (in our terms) means the genetic potential for a game, tough, talented, bad ass dog to come out.

If it's not maintained in your genetic management, then it's not coming out in your pups. Like a red nose, it doesn't have to show up every generation, but it's got to be IN THERE (up close is better), and KEPT in there, in order to come back out in another litter.

Jack

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Originally Posted by CA Jack

To answer your original question, I am assuming they are the same dog.

As to whether people breed dogs before matching them, not usually, though I myself don't think it affects much. (You might want to read an experiment I personally did in the thread Does Breeding Affect Performance?.)

As far as breeding performance dogs goes, if you're LINEbreeding, then the dog you're linebreeding on should be one helluva good dog. If you linebreed on mediocrity, you'll get mediocrity. If you linebreed on greatness, you will get greatness. The twist (that throws so many people off) is that you won't ALWAYS get great dogs, but an average dog linebred on a great dog can and will produce great dogs ... especially if he's bred to relatives who have this same great dog in there ... whereas an average dog linebred on average dogs never will.

People who say linebred dogs can't fight only say this because the dogs they linebred on SUCK. I can assure you that dogs that are linebred CORRECTLY not only can fight, they can outproduce the daylights out of most mixed-bred mutts.

The key to keeping a family of dogs in the winner's circle is simply this: A GOOD EYE for a dog and GOOD TASTE in breeding decisions.

If you don't know what a good dog looks like, you will never breed good dogs consistently.
If you don't make intelligent breeding decisions, you will never breed good dogs consistently.

But if you know what a good dog looks like, and if you make intelligent breeding decisions ... which means MANAGING THE GENE POOL YOU HAVE ... and KEEPING the good in there ... then you can breed good dogs perpetually, for as long as you want.

But the "good" has to be IN THERE, genetically, in order to do this; you can't make "something" out of nothing.
That "something" has to be IN THERE, which (in our terms) means the genetic potential for a game, tough, talented, bad ass dog to come out.

If it's not maintained in your genetic management, then it's not coming out in your pups. Like a red nose, it doesn't have to show up every generation, but it's got to be IN THERE (up close is better), and KEPT in there, in order to come back out in another litter.

Jack

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I figure they are the same dog as well. That was an interesting thread, thanks for the link. Also like your breeding ideas, they seem to be good, sound common sense. Which is not all that common, ironically enough!

The reason why no-talent dogs can produce great dogs with talent, is the no-talent dog was linebred on a great dog.

A no-talent dog, that is not linebred, and has no dogs with talent in his pedigree, simply canNOT produce talent.

Talent can't come from "nowhere" ... it has to come from somewhere.


However, some no-talent dogs (even if they are linebred on a talented dog) have simply lost their ability to produce talent.

Again, it's like a red/rednose.

Some buckskin dogs have a rednose gene in them. You can breed two such buckskin dogs (Aa) and produce a rednose (aa) dog with them.
In the same way, you can breed two no-talent plugs, with a common badass ancestor, and produce a badass dog with them.

But you can't keep doing that forever.

The reason is, some of the buckskin dogs will be pure AA buckskins and have LOST the rednose gene.
Similarly, some no-talent dogs off of talented dogs, have simply LOST gameness and ability somewhere.

Therefore, if you keep breeding no-talent pieces of shit together, even if they're linebred on a highly-talented dog, you will LOSE gameness and ability if you're not specifically looking at your dogs and SELECTING FOR gameness and talent.

You can't just keep breeding no-talent dogs together and KEEP gameness and talent; you have to keep breeding to the dogs that exhibit gameness and talent.
You have to breed for performance.

Sure, you can sometimes "get by" by breeding no-talent, inbred plugs ... that have some super-duper dog back there ... but you don't want to make a perpetual habit of this.

Like anything, a little common horse sense goes a long way ...

Jack

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Originally Posted by CA Jack

Talent can't come from "nowhere" ... it has to come from somewhere.

Some buckskin dogs have a rednose gene in them. You can breed two such buckskin dogs (Aa) and produce a rednose (aa) dog with them.
In the same way, you can breed two no-talent plugs, with a common badass ancestor, and produce a badass dog with them.

But you can't keep doing that forever.

The reason is, some of the buckskin dogs will be pure AA buckskins and have LOST the rednose gene.
Similarly, some no-talent dogs off of talented dogs, have simply LOST gameness and ability somewhere.

Therefore, if you keep breeding no-talent pieces of shit together, even if they're linebred on a highly-talented dog, you will LOSE gameness and ability if you're not specifically looking at your dogs and SELECTING FOR gameness and talent.

You can't just keep breeding no-talent dogs together and KEEP gameness and talent; you have to keep breeding to the dogs that exhibit gameness and talent.
You have to breed for performance.

Sure, you can sometimes "get by" by breeding no-talent, inbred plugs ... that have some super-duper dog back there ... but you don't want to make a perpetual habit of this.

Like anything, a little common horse sense goes a long way ...

Jack

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This is excellent. I can't imagine why anybody would be regularly breeding no talent plugs, inbred or no: my understanding is gameness will be irretrievably lost if you are not constantly selecting for it. That means breeding to game dogs as, like you say, it can't come from nowhere. It has to come from somewhere.

It's funny you mention horse sense since a lot of this is as true for thoroughbred racehorses as it is for dogs. They breed winners to winners & game losers. I can only dream of a day when matching game dogs is legal like horse racing. The very same thing is happening: you're watching a living laboratory that tests which animals to breed. And some people make some coin off of it. The practical difference? Thoroughbred ownership tends to be much more wealthy & more organized than game dog ownership. I've heard it said about fighting cocks as well, but I know almost nothing about that sport; my understanding is that it's legal in at least a few states. It's really sad that they discriminate against the dogs like that.

Sorry for the run on. Question: do you define "talent" as gameness, or ability, or both?

Talent has nothing to do with gameness ... and gameness has nothing to do with talent.

This is why you have highly-talented dogs that quit the moment they get tired (or fall behind, if against another talented dog) ... and it's also why we have the term game plug (a dog that will never quit but is ineffective).

An entire book can be written on the subject of "talent" and what that means.
(I have a chapter of my own book describing talent.)

Some people confuse brute force for "talent" ... some people confuse "hard mouth" for talent ... but talent/power and talent/mouth are completely different things also.

IMO, talent is best described as, "A dog that is able to do what it wants, while preventing the other dog from doing what it wants."

The dog that is able to bite without being bitten; the dog that is able to establish control without being controlled, etc.
That is talent.

Talent = some kind of nebulous combination of intelligence + the athletic ability to execute the desired moves.

You attempt to build on talent (increase stamina, add mouth, power, gameness, etc.)

But talent itself has to do with the intelligence/savvy of knowing what to do + having the athletic ability to do it.

Jack

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Originally Posted by CA Jack

Talent has nothing to do with gameness ... and gameness has nothing to do with talent.

This is why you have highly-talented dogs that quit the moment they get tired (or fall behind, if against another talented dog) ... and it's also why we have the term game plug (a dog that will never quit but is ineffective).

An entire book can be written on the subject of "talent" and what that means.
(I have a chapter of my own book describing talent.)

Some people confuse brute force for "talent" ... some people confuse "hard mouth" for talent ... but talent/power and talent/mouth are completely different things also.

IMO, talent is best described as, "A dog that is able to do what it wants, while preventing the other dog from doing what it wants."

The dog that is able to bite without being bitten; the dog that is able to establish control without being controlled, etc.
That is talent.

Talent = some kind of nebulous combination of intelligence + the athletic ability to execute the desired moves.

You attempt to build on talent (increase stamina, add mouth, power, gameness, etc.)

But talent itself has to do with the intelligence/savvy of knowing what to do + having the athletic ability to do it.

Jack

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OK, that's what I thought, gameness & talent are not the same. They call the highly talented dog that only stays in the fight so long as he's ahead or not winded a front-running cur, don't they? He's game enough not to quit so long as things are going his way. Would seem like the game plug is the opposite of that (won't quit no matter how tired &/or beaten he is). Is a game plug worth breeding to? My guess would be no as there are probably many as game or more game dogs out there w/a ton more ability. Why reach for the mediocre when the excellent lies before us!

I always thought talent, or "ability" if you like, was more than just mouth. Aren't there components to talent? At least, that's what some have said. Beyond gameness, things like stamina, durability, bite, wrestling ability, driving power, ring savvy, pacing, intelligence...I have seen lists of these types of attributes, sometimes rank-ordered as to their importance (which obviously vary depending on who is being asked). I like that definition of talent, as it seems to neatly sum up all those factors. Intelligence + athleticism. I did cheat ahead in your terrific book, I must confess (couldn't help myself, reading out of order like that! I've always loved "fight dynamics"), & saw that you express a very definite preference in your dogs for the game, methodical dismantler as opposed to the hard-charging barnstormer. I guess if you could combine both sets of attributes or styles in one dog you would have the proverbial "ace of aces." The Holy Grail of game dogs. I'm pretty sure most guys don't even get one in a lifetime like that.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to the pesky questions/ramblings of a neophyte. It's appreciated.

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Originally Posted by FrostyPaws

Pedro was never labeled a 9xw anywhere until pedigrees online. You can't take those pedigrees as truth. The Soo Evil dog that FB won 4 or 5 with was TVK's roll dog, and FB only ended up with the dog when TVK was going to cull him. There are all types of things happening with dogs.

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prety talented roll dog though for a high ability cur

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Originally Posted by STA8541

OK, that's what I thought, gameness & talent are not the same. They call the highly talented dog that only stays in the fight so long as he's ahead or not winded a front-running cur, don't they? He's game enough not to quit so long as things are going his way. Would seem like the game plug is the opposite of that (won't quit no matter how tired &/or beaten he is). Is a game plug worth breeding to? My guess would be no as there are probably many as game or more game dogs out there w/a ton more ability. Why reach for the mediocre when the excellent lies before us!

I always thought talent, or "ability" if you like, was more than just mouth. Aren't there components to talent? At least, that's what some have said. Beyond gameness, things like stamina, durability, bite, wrestling ability, driving power, ring savvy, pacing, intelligence...I have seen lists of these types of attributes, sometimes rank-ordered as to their importance (which obviously vary depending on who is being asked). I like that definition of talent, as it seems to neatly sum up all those factors. Intelligence + athleticism. I did cheat ahead in your terrific book, I must confess (couldn't help myself, reading out of order like that! I've always loved "fight dynamics"), & saw that you express a very definite preference in your dogs for the game, methodical dismantler as opposed to the hard-charging barnstormer. I guess if you could combine both sets of attributes or styles in one dog you would have the proverbial "ace of aces." The Holy Grail of game dogs. I'm pretty sure most guys don't even get one in a lifetime like that.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to the pesky questions/ramblings of a neophyte. It's appreciated.

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LOL, you sound like me ... do I know you?

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Originally Posted by bolero

prety talented roll dog though for a high ability cur

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Statistics show that most dogs that are out there competing are simply high-ability curs ...

Very few of the so-Called "Champions" out there are actually high-ability, deeply-game dogs.

Those that are, are truly special.

Jack

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Originally Posted by CA Jack

LOL, you sound like me ... do I know you?

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:) I'm 100% certain you do not, but you seem like a good guy w/a great love for his animals. And I respect that.

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Originally Posted by STA8541

:) I'm 100% certain you do not, but you seem like a good guy w/a great love for his animals. And I respect that.

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I have been around for 25 years, and it sounds like you just stumbled across me :confused: :-?

I don't have any "animals" any longer.

Since you seem to be focused on some old dogs that (really) have nothing to do with today's dogs, and since you also write with precision, this makes you appear as "not" the everyday dogman ...

Who are you, and what line of dogs do you actually have?

Thanks,

Jack

25 years is a long time
sometimes you wonder where all the time has gone

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Originally Posted by CA Jack

I have been around for 25 years, and it sounds like you just stumbled across me :confused: :-?

I don't have any "animals" any longer.

Since you seem to be focused on some old dogs that (really) have nothing to do with today's dogs, and since you also write with precision, this makes you appear as "not" the everyday dogman ...

Who are you, and what line of dogs do you actually have?

Thanks,

Jack

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I did indeed just stumble across you: I saw you wrote a book called "The Pit Bull Bible" & I just had to have it! Any guy w/the courage to title a book like that was worth reading in my estimation & so far I was right. :)

I know you don't have any dogs any more, & from what I have been able to ascertain that is a shame. You have very clear ideas of what to do w/the dogs &, more importantly, how to get it. Many people never figure that out.

I like the old timer dogs partly b/c I'm a history buff & also that I believe it is important that we not forget nor ignore the past. There are many valuable lessons there. Not to mention, today's dogs stand on the shoulders of giants, genetically speaking, don't they? I know they are removed timewise, but "down from game dogs," has some meaning, I would think. And I thank you for the compliment on the writing. I have been (over)educated. Not that it made me smart: all it did was make my wallet thinner, mostly! You pay them, they give you a sheepskin, & off you go. I'm a voracious reader; I'm sure that accounts for a lot of it.

I don't have a line of dogs, or even a dog at present. I'm not a breeder, never have been. I have long thought about what kind of dog I might like to own (which is problematic at the moment given my current situation & I won't bore you w/the details, but things change), & sites like yours help me to make informed, intelligent decisions about bloodlines, gameness, etc. Might as well learn from others & do it right, no?

You are welcome, of course.

I agree there is nothing wrong with being smarter (or better-read) than the average bear ... nor is there anything wrong with being a novice.

But all your use of %s, hyphenated words, etc. made me think you sounded like me (lol), and then it got me wondering as to who you are :-?

In dogs, everybody needs to concentrate on looking over their shoulders ... and assessing who their company is.

So you either seem like a novice to me ... who is going to wind up doing very well (if you stick with it) ... or you seem like a cop/HSUS researcher who's wanting to gather a lot of information :shocked:

I looked at your stats, and IP address, etc., and (if accurate) you're pretty young, so I guess I will be giving you the benefit of the doubt.

So, good luck,

Jack

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Originally Posted by bulldoghistorian

25 years is a long time
sometimes you wonder where all the time has gone

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Fur sure ...

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Originally Posted by CA Jack

I agree there is nothing wrong with being smarter (or better-read) than the average bear ... nor is there anything wrong with being a novice.

But all your use of %s, hyphenated words, etc. made me think you sounded like me (lol), and then it got me wondering as to who you are :-?

In dogs, everybody needs to concentrate on looking over their shoulders ... and assessing who their company is.

So you either seem like a novice to me ... who is going to wind up doing very well (if you stick with it) ... or you seem like a cop/HSUS researcher who's wanting to gather a lot of information :shocked:

I looked at your stats, and IP address, etc., and (if accurate) you're pretty young, so I guess I will be giving you the benefit of the doubt.

So, good luck,

Jack

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Hi Jack, apologies for the late reply; was outta town visiting family for the weekend & was not online at all, I'm sure you know how it is.

I'm not that smart (I don't equate "educated" w/"smart"...sometimes they the same, & sometimes they ain't!). Self-education is the best kind, I have found, anyway. And I do read a lot, like I said, so that's where like 98% of it comes from. And I totally get the looking over your shoulder thing: I appreciate people who appreciate security, honestly, so I don't mind being assessed. I'm actually glad you thought enough of me to do that! B/c...please believe me...I am no cop (have been told I look like one, though...I think it's mostly the fact that I'm big!) And as for HSUS...NO! Dear God, no! Those people are almost completely responsible for the fact that we have to look over our shoulders in the first place. And I detest that. I completely agree w/the introduction in your book & also posted here. It shouldn't be anybody's business if anyone is matching dogs, so long as no one is being hurt (& I've never heard of anyone being hurt). If it's not your hobby, that's fine & I get that. It's not for everybody. But those people wanna stick their nose in & tell people how to spend their free time or dictate what hobbies are acceptable, & I just...don't like that at all. I sometimes wonder if it's too far gone anymore to return to a saner time, what w/all the media hype about the bulldog. I fear it may be.

I am a novice, & always willing to learn from those more experienced & expert, which is why I'm here. I just think it's the greatest breed on earth, & want it to stay that way. If nobody could test for gameness, where the hell would the dogs be? Glad you think I'm young too; I'll pass that along to my wife, she'll be thrilled, lol. :)

Thank you for the benefit of the doubt. If I ever make you, or anybody else on here, uncomfortable, in any way, I will never darken your doors here again of my own volition. You have my word on that. It's not what I'm about, at all. I just like talking about this stuff w/people who are expert in it. And I hope that it will lead me to make very good decisions about the dogs in the (hopefully near) future, learning something useful from those who have gone before. Nothing more sinister than that, I assure you.